To All the Skopyans !!!!


TO THE BATTLE, WE RIDE
WE CROSSED A STARLIT SKY !
NO SPACE, NO TIME
WE WILL CATCH THE WIND!!!

STRANGE LOSSES ! MEN DIE !
WE CROSSED A STARLIT SKKYYYYY
BUT STILL, NO SPACE, NO TIME
WE WILL CATCH THE WIND !!!


DOWN WITH THE SKOPYANS !!!!
YEAHHH !!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2bnKeUvKG0

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Unfortunately, Scott, I have an equally accurate document (German, dating from 1916), a copy of which is lodged in the US National Archive in Columbia, DC (also too in Polish and UK National Archives too), that records the entire area of "Paionia" immediately to the north of Salonika as being Bulgarian/Macedonian speaking and populated by people of that ethnic origin (south of Salonika is recorded as Greek.) Thrace is recorded as a Bulgarian / Greek / Turkish mix.

This is rather a more modern document than the Professor's classical sources, and reflects meticulous research work carried out in Berlin. It cannot be ascribed to an Anglo-American plot, as the UK was at war with Germany at the time, while the US was working out on its own map where German-land was (shades of George W.Bush here.)

Hey Pyrros, love your article; a very comical piece of satire.

I accidentally stumbled on this blog, and as Archaeology is my field of specialty, i could not help but be strangely enthralled and yet disgusted at the examples of ethno-nationalistic jingoism which are expressed through the poorly written,false and erroneous comments on this blog from Peter, Van Helsing, etc.

Pyrros is the only one here with any historical accuracy or credibility, and the folk here attack him?

Everyone in the academic field knows that the Ancient Macedonians where Greek, and that the modern-day inhabitants of FYROM are a slavic people not related to the ancient Greek Macedonians.

Pyrros,thought i'd post you an article from my friend and colleague, Professor Emeritus of California University, Berkley, Stephen G.Miller

January 22, 2009

Editor, Archaeology Magazine
36-36 33rd Street
Long Island City, NY 11106
U.S.A.


Dear Sir,

I opened the January/February issue of Archaeology today and eagerly turned to “A Letter from Macedonia” only to discover that it was actually a letter from ancient Paionia – the land north of Mt. Barmous and Mt. Orbelos.

Livy’s account of the creation of the Roman province of Macedonia (45.29.7 and 12) makes clear that the Paionians lived north of those mountains (which form today the geographically natural northern limits of Greece) and south of the Dardanians who were in today’s Kosovo.

Strabo (7. frag 4) is even more succinct in saying that Paionia was north of Macedonia and the only connection from one to the other was (and is today) through the narrow gorge of the Axios (or Vardar) River. In other words, the land which is described by Matthew Brunwasser in his “Owning Alexander” was Paionia in antiquity.

While it is true that those people were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 359 B.C. (Diodorus Siculus 16.4.2), they were never Macedonians and never lived in Macedonia. Indeed, Demosthenes (Olynthian 1.23) tells us that they were “enslaved” by the Macedonian Philip and clearly, therefore, not Macedonians. Isokrates (5.23) makes the same point. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians who were subdued by Alexander may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia (and so far as I can tell does not seek that name today).

Certainly, as Thucydides (2.99) tells us, the Macedonians had taken over “a narrow strip of Paionia extending along the Axios river from the interior to Pella and the sea”. One might therefore understand if the people in the modern republic centered at Skopje called themselves Paionians and claimed as theirs the land described by Thucydides.

But why, instead, would the modern people of ancient Paionia try to call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Mr. Brunwasser (p. 55) touches on the Greek claims “that it implies ambitions over Greek territory” and he notes that “the northern province of Greece is also called Macedonia.” Leaving aside the fact that the area of that northern province of modern Greece has been called Macedonia for more than 2,500 years (see, inter alios, Herodotus 5.17; 7.128, et alibi), more recent history shows that the Greek concerns are legitimate. For example, a map produced in Skopje in 1992 (Figure 1) shows clearly the claim that Macedonia extends from there to Mt. Olympus in the south; that is, combining the ancient regions of Paionia and Macedonia into a single entity. The same claim is explicit on a pseudo-bank note of the Republic of Macedonia which shows, as one of its monuments, the White Tower of Thessalonike, in Greece (Figure 2). There are many more examples of calendars, Christmas cards, bumper-stickers, etc., that all make the same claim.

Further, Mr. Brunwasser has reported with approval (International Herald Tribune 10/1/08) the work of the “Macedonian Institute for Strategic Research 16:9”, the name of which refers “to Acts 16:9, a verse in the New Testament in which a Macedonian man appears to the Apostle Paul begging him: ‘Come over into Macedonia, and help us.’” But where did Paul go in Macedonia? Neapolis (Kavala), Philippi, Amphipolis, Apollonia, Thessaloniki, and Veroia (Acts 16:11-17:10) all of which are in the historic Macedonia, none in Paionia. What claim is being made by an Institute based in Skopje that names itself for a trip through what was Macedonia in antiquity and what is the northern province of Greece today?

I wonder what we would conclude if a certain large island off the southeast coast of the United States started to call itself Florida, and emblazoned its currency with images of Disney World and distributed maps showing the Greater Florida.

Certainly there was no doubt of the underlying point of “Macedonia” in the mind of U.S. Secretary of State Edward Stettinius on December 26, 1944, when he wrote:

“The Department [of State] has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This government considers talk of Macedonian ”nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

Source: U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations vol viii, Washington, D.C., Circular Airgram (868.014/26Dec1944)]

Mr. Brunwasser (a resident of Bulgaria), however, goes on to state, with apparent distain, that Greece claims “Alexander III of Macedon (Alexander the Great) . . . as Greek.”

This attitude mystifies me. What is there to “claim”? Alexander’s great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, was certified as Greek at Olympia and, in the words of the father of history “I happen to know that [the forefathers of Alexander] are Greek” (Herodotus 5.22). Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi (Plutarch, Alexander 4.9; Moralia 105A), the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. If Philip was Greek, wasn’t his son also Greek?

When Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia (Thucydides apud Pal. Anth. 7.45; Pausanias 1.2.2; Diodorus Siculus 13.103) – wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, did he write it in Slavic? When he wrote the Bacchai while at the court of Archelaos did he not write it in Greek even as it has survived to us? Or should we imagine that Euripides was a “Macedonian” who wrote in Slavic (at a date when that language is not attested) which was translated into Greek?

What was the language of instruction when Aristotle taught Alexander? What language was carried by Alexander with him on his expedition to the East? Why do we have ancient inscriptions in Greek in settlements established by Alexander as far away as Afghanistan, and none in Slavic? Why did Greek become the lingua franca in Alexander’s empire if he was actually a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament written in Greek rather than Slavic?
On page 57 of the so-called “Letter from Macedonia” there is a photograph of the author standing “before a bronze statue of Alexander the Great in the city of Prilep.” The statue is patently modern, but the question is whether the real historic Alexander could have read the Slavic inscription beneath his feet. Given the known historic posterity of Slavic to Greek, the answer is obvious.

While Mr. Brunwasser’s reporting of the archaeological work in Paionia is welcome, his adoption and promotion of the modern political stance of its people about the use of the name Macedonia is not only unwelcome, it is a disservice to the readers of Archaeology who are, I imagine, interested in historic fact. But then, the decision to propagate this historical nonsense by Archaeology – a publication of the Archaeological Institute of America - is a disservice to its own reputation.

Let it be said once more: the region of ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian empire. So were Ephesos and Tyre and Palestine and Memphis and Babylon and Taxila and dozens more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”.

Allow me to end this exegesis by making a suggestion to resolve the question of the modern use of the name “Macedonia.” Greece should annex Paionia – that is what Philip II did in 359 B.C. And that would appear to be acceptable to the modern residents of that area since they claim to be Greek by appropriating the name Macedonia and its most famous man. Then the modern people of this new Greek province could work on learning to speak and read and write Greek, hopefully even as well as Alexander did.

Sincerely,
Stephen G. Miller

Professor Emeritus,
University of California,
Berkeley

PS: For a more complete examination of the ancient evidence regarding Paionia, see I. L. Merker, “The Ancient Kingdom of Paionia,” Balkan Studies 6 (1965) 35-54

cc: C. Brian Rose, President, Archaeological Institute of America
Hillary Rodham Clinton, Secretary of State of the United States of America
Dora Bakoyiannis, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Greece
Antonis Samaras, Minister of Culture of Greece
Olli Rehn, European Commissioner for Enlargement
Erik Meijer, Member, European Parliament

to Aries - Pyrros has an oddly accurate point in his sub-para 5: the present-day Macedonian language is indeed a version of Bulgarian but using the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet (which is not true Cyrillic, whereas Bulgarian is, as is Russian.) But I think he is optimistic about the UN doing anything (it can't even censure Zimbabwe for some horrible human-rights abuses), and beyond that his posting is simply a rant.

On the subject of Cyrillic script - and in an effort to introduce a lighter note after Pyrros has plumbed the depths - we occasionally used to wind up the Russian interpreters by giving them a document in Mongolian. Now this is in standard Cyrillic script - plus a few letters to represent unusual Mongolian sounds - but the language has no resemblance to Russian, Greek or anything ! (A similar effect could be obtained by using a document in pre-1989 Moldovan Cyrillic, which no Russian could understand at all. Mainly because the language is actually Romanian !)

Dr Cornelius
I think you are 80% correct
for his too long posts.
and after point he went a bit "bronco".
to Luminarium
Keep the light for yourself
open a book or forever remain in
Tenebrum.
your post is a disgrace.

Dr Cornelius
YES after point 10 the guy went "bronco" a bit.but he has a point for
80% apart for length of his post.
luminarium
please my friend stay in tenebrum
(in the shadow) for i will summon the Stakeholders

(mainly to Aries) It looks as if Pyrros is now a worthy successor to Peter the Dreadful in terms of over-long postings and slightly suspect arguments here and there.

Greetings good people!
If i may say my opinion as world academic? We need to back off a little. Alexandar the great and his father Filip was once our
conqueror. Hi did not made slaves from us but he made war with the Athens, Sparta, and all other Greeks. Hi called him self Macedonian, and that means hi was not one of us. He maybe was polite and friend with the Greeks, but As any conqueror and his army, his warriors rape and ravish Greek womans. SO WHY DO YOU MY FELLOW GREEKS DEMAND TO BE MACEDONIANS? Please reconsider what you are saying and do not speak with your heart but with your brain. THANK YOU ALL and let GOD be with you!

You Greekes need to stopppp...

To Pyrros
Man you have a good point of view
though not all correct 100%
but quite a peculiar way of putting it.

There are a group of people masquerading under the alias of “macedonians”. They are dangerous and highly emotive and self delusional. All caution is recommended when approaching these people; strait jackets, tubs of yogurt and red peppers should be carried by any persons approaching these dangerous and crazy people at all times. The telltale signs that identfy a Skopyan are that they are short in stature, have a triangular shaped head, jutted jaw, bulbous forehead, shovelled nose, and deep set sunken eyes.

They are highly volatile and become aggressive when they hear the words ‘Greek’ or ‘Albanian’. The habitat of this highly unusual creature outside of its native confines of Western Bulgaria (FYROM) is Rockdale, Port Kembla, Toronto and Bitola. They are a symbiotic creature who preys on the lives of others as does a parasite. ie (An African crow picking ticks off a Buffalos back or a leach sucking the blood from its host)
When not crunching peppers or sucking yogurt, the majority of its time is spent blowing the GAIDJA, and living in a magical self contained fantasy land.
It sucks the life blood and history of other countries and makes it its own, thus giving its life meaning and definition. After a good feeding, this creature turns a brilliant red and a yellow like star appears on its chest before losing colour and becoming the pathetic, parasitic transparent colour it actually is.
Some of the major delusions and fantasies it believes are:
1. THAT BYZANTIUM:- THE 7TH CENTURY BC ATHENIAN COLONY WHICH WAS SUBSEQUENTLY RENAMED CONSTANTINOPLE WAS REALLY A MAGIC PLACE CALLED ‘TSARI-GRAD’.
2. THAT THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE WAS REALLY KNOWN AS ‘PRAVOSLAVEN’. (note typical multiple personalities often appear in schizophrenics, common to the Skopyan creature)
3. THAT THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH, CONSTANTINOPLE AND BYZANTIUM ARE REALLY ‘SLAV MACEDONIAN’, THAT WERE HELLENISED BY THE BIG BAD GREEKS - (the predator and enemy of the crazy Skopyan creature)
4. THAT THE CIVILISATION AND GIFTS THAT THE ANCIENT GREEKS GAVE TO THE WORLD ie. MATHEMATICS, BIOLOGY, MEDICINE, LAW, PHYSICS AND PHILOSOPHY ARE NOT GREEK BUT REALLY ARE ‘SLAV MACEDONIAN’ WHICH WOULD MEAN THAT;
i) Pythagoras (Maths) - was Slav Macedonian and not Greek?
ii) Thales & Anaximander (Biology/Science) - were Slav Macedonians and not Greek?
iii) Hippocrates (Medicine) - was slav Macedonian and not Greek?
iv) Solon & Lykurgos (Law) - were Slav Macedonians and not Greek?
v) Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Diogenes (Philosophy) - were Slav Macedonians and not Greek? (note the Skopyans’ parasitic and delusional nature allows it to absorb and believe that which it steals as its own)
5. THAT ANCIENT MACEDONIA, HER KINGS, NOBILITY AND PEOPLE WERE NOT GREEK BUT SKOPYAN ? (Even though they spoke the same Greek Language, believed in the same Greek Gods, and had the same social, cultural and political institutions. Note Mount Olympus - home of the Greek Gods, is in Ancient Macedonia.)
Note that in the face of overwhelming and unanimous archeological historical and linguistic evidence, this crazy Skopyan creature continues to disbelieve and attaches its leach like mandibles to the body of the Greek soul for its dear life, for once deprived of an identity, it quickly shrivels up and dies. These are some of the delusional fantasies that inhabit the wonderful and the weird world of the Red Skopyan Creature.
As stated already, once approached appease the creature with a small tub of yogurt and a basket of red peppers, whilst its sucking its yogurt and crunching its peppers quickly charge and fasten and attach the strait jacket whilst a companion is playing the Gaidjar. (This seems to calm the creature down - originating from the Bitola habitat) Once secured, show the creature the “ANTI DELUSIONAL REALITY BITES” antidote list and read the following:-
1. THAT MACEDONIA WAS, IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE GREEK AND HAS BEEN FOR OVER 4000 YEARS.
2. THAT THERE NEVER HAS BEEN A RACE CALLED MACEDONIANS (widely acknowledged by ethnologists and anthropologists)
3. THAT THE SKOPYANS ARE SLAVS WHO HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP TO THE HISTORICAL GREEK SPEAKING MACEDONIANS OF ANCIENT MACEDONIA.
4. THAT THE STAR OF VERGINA WAS A UNIVERSALLY ACKNOWLEDGED GREEK RELIGIOUS SYMBOL OF THE GREEK SUN GOD HELIOS THAT PRIOR TO ITS DISCOVERY IN 1975 WAS UNKNOWN TO THE SKOPYANS, BUT UNIVERSALLY KNOWN TO THE GREEKS.
5. THAT THE LANGUAGE SPOKEN BY THE SKOPYANS (’SLAV MACEDONIAN’) IS A BULGARIAN LANGUAGE WHICH IS INFLUENCED BY SERBO CROAT, UNANIMOUSLY IDENTIFIED AS SUCH BY LINGUISTS.
6. THAT THE LANGUAGE SPOKEN BY THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS WAS GREEK - AGAIN PROVEN AND SUPPORTED BY ALL ARCHEOLOGISTS AND VERIFIABLE BY CURRENT PRIMARY ARCHOLOGICAL EVIDENCE. (Unadulterated, and NOT open to INTERPRETATION - refer to WEBSITES)
7. THAT THE UNITED NATIONS WILL NOT RECOGNISE THE COUNTRY OF THE SKOPYANS AS ANYTHING BUT FYROM.
8. THAT THE UNITED NATIONS DO NOT ALLOW FYROM TO USE OR APPROPRIATE ANY GREEK CULTURAL SYMBOLS (Macedonia, Alexander the Great, Star of Vergina, etc etc)
9. THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF FYROM HAS AGREED AND CHANGED ITS FLAG AND STOPPED USING GREEK CULTURAL SYMBOLS
10. THAT THE SKOPYANS ARE SLAVS, AND AS SUCH, SHOULD STOP STEALING GREEK CULTURE; ANCIENT MEDIEVAL, OR MODERN, AND ACCEPT AND BE PROUD THAT THEY ARE SLAVS.
11. THAT IF THEIR PROPAGANDA CONTINUES, THE GREEKS WILL SEND OVER 2 F-17 JET FIGHTERS TO TAKE OUT FYROM (more than enough to do the job)
12. ACCEPT THAT THE ALBANIANS WERE IN FYROM BEFORE THE SLAVS WERE - SLAVS ONLY ARRIVED IN THE 8th CENTURY AD.
13. THAT 90% OF THE FYROM LAND MASS OCCUPIED AN AREA KNOWN IN ANCIENT TIMES AS PAEONIA - BARBARIAN CELT/ ILLYRIAN COUNTRY.
Once you show this list to the Crazy Red Skopyan creature it will go wild with fury and frenzy. Its fellow Skopyans in Port Kembla, Rockdale and Toronto, will froth and ferment, and struggle even more to hang on to their life of illusion. Remember, that the Skopyan creature, when not feeding and sucking the culture of others, is a clear, transperant, pathetic creature. Just smile, pat its head, and give it some yogurt to suck and red peppers to crunch and it will curl up against a tree glowing bright red, and dreaming away in its fantasy land in Tsari-Grad, in Pravo-Slaven, in a far, far away place……..
…………And Risto the Red Skopyan lived happily ever after.
Pyrros Lagos

to the Ram - many thanks: email sent with map attachments. Hope you get it ok.

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to the Ram - because I'm doing a direct quote, and "it isn't necessarily so" is not what the song is called ! But a nice and apt comment nonetheless, and thanks !

To Cornelius, I wodner how can a Cambridge laureate can even touch American slang stuff "ain't".

to the Ram - yes, I agree entirely: what I called the "aspirate" (as UK Classical scholars do) is also called the "daseia" in the 'Erasmic' rendering of Ancient Greek. Which means that "hoi polloi" is correct according to the Erasmic spelling, and is pronounced as an 'h' in English and Dutch/ Flemish, though I do entirely agree that French and German may do it differently. (As for modern Greeks, I think it has to be accepted that well-intentioned foreigners may pronouce ancient Greek differently from yourselves, but with the best of intentions. There are certainly several different conventions. But please don't say that "Hoi Polloi" is wrong, because it "ain't necessarily so" (to quote George Gershwin, not normally a great authority on Greek affairs !)

Peter
Absolvum te ,the correct word is "usurpation" my friend

in 'hoi polloi' the aspirated "h"
Erasmic pronunciation exists be the
the article oi was written with a "daseia" on top of the i .
Homer also there was was a "daseia" on the o befoe the ypsilon in hysterics also and so on.

Why you Greeks are so pathetic?Why are you warning the Macedonians of Albanian domination? You cannot see yourselfs that the majority in Greece since Ancient times has been dominated by the Albanians? Ram,you got history wrong,same with Greg.Languages have changed over time. The Ancient Hellenic language you do not understand your self,but let me remind you of one thing;Ancient Macedonian and todays Macedonian languages are closer than your Ancient language. The very question to be asked is this;Why Greece is so opsest with Macedonia?Alexander the Great was bilingual-Macedonian and Hellenic.Dpnt forget the 50 thousand Hellens that fought againts the Macedonians in Persia.They were deffending King Darious.Please, stop fabricating history,it is becoming a bit of boring excuse for you Greeks.

to Achilles - oh dear, you have made several basic and blatant factual errors in a posting whose length exceeds even that of Peter the Awful the Macedonian elsewhere on this site. Firstly, you conclude that I must be a Bulgarian, despite other Hellenes on the site admitting that I cannot be Bulgarian as my grasp of English is too fluent. Secondly, as regards "hoi polloi", this is actually the correct spelling in Ancient Greek; there is an "aspirate" over the initial letter 'o' (an aspirate looks like a very small letter 'c') and this transforms the sound from an 'o' to a 'ho'. So 'oi' becomes 'hoi'. (Just key 'Hoi Polloi' into Google to get plenty of immediate comfirmation of this. Oh, and Hoi Polloi is also in the Oxford English Dictionary too, with the same spelling as I have used.)
If this is a sample of the accuracy of your "informed opinion", I think we can all safely ignore the remainder of your over-lengthy posting. I bid you a good day, much as your contribution does not deserve it.

To K
Sorry i don't understand (Albanian
or whatever) try again.

Good Job Pyrros in unmasking Dr Van Helsingovski Popovski for what he is, a biased Bulgarian,pretending to be the unbiased arbiter, yet being in the same Fyromain camp "Trojan horse-like", and supporting his fellow Fyromian Bulgarian brother in arms in their obviously biased arguments- they are on the same side: pathetic!

Also in respect to the phrase "OI POLLOI", you dolt and peasant "DR Van Helsingovski popovski",PYRROS spelt it exactly as it was spelt then, and as it is spelt now; and which incidentally has the same meaning, albeit, with a slightly different pronunciation.

Pyrros, i looked up your works up and thought in your honour, i'd paste this piece i found on the American Chronicle here for everyone to enjoy:


ANTI-GREEK PROPAGANDA: A RESPONSE TO THE FYROM DREAMTIME

October 27, 2008-Pyrros Lagos

The internet as a technology has enabled humanity to expand its boundaries of knowledge and has also provided modern man with an easily accessible source of entertainment. It has also provided modern man with a convenient and functional method to propagate racial hatred and propaganda. In this, Mr.Risto Stefov has consistently taken advantage of this through the vehicle of the American Chronicle to spread his personal canon of beliefs and feelings which drip with venom, rage, disdain and hatred of Greeks and of empirical and historical knowledge; the articles that Mr.Stefov writes about Greeks are nothing but personal opinions devoid of fact.

Firstly for the object of this response; we will label the citizens of FYROM as Serbo-Bulgar pseudo-Macedonian Slavs – historically and ethnologically, that is exactly what they are – there is no such a race or language as Macedonian. The right of self-determination is a basic enshrined right in the civilised world; but not when that comes at the expense of the appropriation of names and identities, which historically do not belong to them.

That is what has been occurring since these pseudo-historical philosophies and ideals were indoctrinated into the population of FYROM under the auspices of the communist politburo in 1944. Macedonia appeared for the first time as an entity on the world stage since 1991 – prior to that, the world has known the people of FYROM as Slavs of Bulgarian origin, a fact which is attested to by the majority of historians, archaeologists and ethnologists.

Mr Stefov continually dwells and harks back to 1913 and the ´occupation´ of the geographical area of Macedonia by Greece– but he does this in a way as to link this event to the current name, badge or label that the Slavic inhabitants of FYROM have chosen for themselves since 1944 – MACEDONIA, and attempts to claim this as an occupation of his "homeland".

Firstly, the historical ancient Greek kingdom of Macedon has always been part of the Greek world and a part of the homeland of the ancient Greek peoples, and of which the majority of historians and archaeologists again, support and attest to.

Mr Stefov´s ancestors on the other hand were invading Bulgarian Slav tribes who inundated the Balkans and parts of the northern peripheries of the then Greek civilisation of Byzantium; from the ancient times, right through the Roman occupation until late Byzantine times, Macedonia has always been part of the Greek world, contrary to what Mr.Stefov would have you believe.

The Byzantine Emperor, ´Basil the Bulgar slayer´, as he has been colloquially known in history since, successfully reclaimed and repelled the northern Greek provinces from the marauding Slavic tribes. The small amount of Bulgarian Slavs that were allowed to stay and settle in the Balkans and peripheries of northern Greece became the ancestors of today´s citizens of FYROM. The Greek empire of Byzantium then fell in the 15th century; Greece and the Balkans were plunged 400 years into slavery under the Ottoman yoke.

When the embers of freedom started to glow and ignited again in the 19th century, the Greek people again regained their freedom and for the first time, were politically united as a whole. Over the next 100 years, Greece miraculously and slowly, regained and reunited lost Greek homelands again, and the province of Macedonia was one of these Greek homelands.

In this process, completing the reclamation of Greek lands from the Slavs which was started by the Byzantine emperor ´Basil the Bulgar Slayer´, over a millennia ago and completed by today´s Greeks in the early 20th Century; and on this point lies the pivot and source of anger for marginal, irredentist and jingoistic people of FYROM, like Mr.Risto Stefov. The last echoes of a war that the invading Serbo-Bulgarian pseudo-Macedonia Slavs lost in their attempts at establishing a homeland in Greece and of the appropriation of Greek history and culture identity..

In regards to the false, delusional pseudo-historical comments that have been made by Slav Serbo-Bulgar pseudo-Macedonians in recent times; one has to consider their modus operandi in regards to their logic and strategy.

The ancestors of the people of the former Yugoslavia; i.e. -Croats, Serbs, Bosnians,

Slovenians, Pseudo-Macedonians (and Bulgarians)-were considered during the Hellenic civilisation of Byzantium, and indeed even in the opinion of the Western Europeans,(Franks, Spaniards and Italians, etc), to have been Barbarians - a term which denotes a lack of civilisation; a primitive state of being which is devoid of culture, sophistication, refinement and education - and which is not a derogatory descriptive, but one which historians have used to describe their level of societal development in the 7th century.

In their slow transition from their state of barbarity to civilisation since their immigration into the Balkans, over a period of some 1300 hundred years since 700 AD; a process of mythologisation has been occurring - the process of myth-making and nation-building; whereby elements of stories, histories, cultural, national and ethnic images and symbology have been in effect, not only borrowed, but stolen and appropriated and incorporated into the national identity and consciousness of FYROM, at the expense of their much older established, sophisticated and civilized neighbors, the Greeks.


In this regards, because the world polity has not buying into their peddled story of a magical transformation from barbarian Slav-Bulgars to Macedonians - to the supposed inheritors of the Ancient Macedonians - the most Greek of all ancient Greeks .....They are left with but only one option, but to use reverse psychology and attack and vilify the Greek national identity along racial, linguistic and cultural continuity.

This usually takes on an irredentist form whereby the Serbo-Bulgar pseudo-Macedonian Slavs attack and challenge Greeks by:

1.Claiming that Modern Greek is an imposed language on the modern state of Greece; &

2.Claiming that Modern Greeks are racially descendant from Ethiopians, and have no racial continuity with the Ancient Greeks, and that the Greek state is a new concept and artificial imposition;&

3. Claim that Classical Greeks have disappeared and Greece has since been populated by Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs, 'Macedonians' and Turks; who have been forcibly Hellenised by the "STATE"

These attacks are not only absurdist, ludicrous and farcical, but fantasist and delusional in nature. Even in the face of some natural absorption of foreign elements into the Greek population over the past 2000 years; they are marginal in nature and have not obliterated or destroyed the racial continuity of Greeks.

Indeed, current anthropological studies conducted over the past 50 years by respected foreign scholars from around the world actually attest to the strength of the ancient Hellenic blood strain in Modern Greeks.

Note that one of the tactics used by the Serbo-Bulgar pseudo-Macedonian Slavs is to state that the Greece race and nation does not exist; that in fact it is an artificial creation and imposition by the great powers of the 19th Century, who forced onto the occupants of the Greek peninsular the Koine Greek and their identity!

They also point to the many different names that Greeks have used for themselves over the ages; Danans, Achaeans, Hellenes, Graecoi, Byzantines, Romios and finally Hellenes.

The historical fact is that Greeks as a people have never been politically united as a nation - except when they were unified by Phillipos and Megas Alexandros of the ancient Greek kingdom of Makedon. Greeks however, have always existed as a people and have always been united by blood, language, religion and culture; but chose however to live and govern themselves as separate political entities.ie: Athens, Sparta, Makedon, Thessaly, Laconia, Messenia, Argos, Achaea, etc, etc, etc.

Then as now, Greeks always identify themselves first in respect of their regional and tribal loyalties, and then as fellow Greeks in the sense of a national consciousness.

In respect to the etymological use of differing names; with a history of some 6000 years, Greeks have indeed used different labels for themselves; but at the end of the day, they are one and the same product - Greeks! And throughout history, the term Greek and Hellene has always been interchangeable.

In Regards to the barbaric Serbo-Bulgar pseudo-Macedonian Slav attack on the Greek language, this argument is even more preposterous. The Modern Greek language of Demotic Greek is a continuous language derived from ancient Attic Greek, which evolved in the Hellenistic age of Alexander into Koine Greek (Common Greek); which was an amalgam of Dorian, Aeolic, Ionian and North-Western Greek (which ancient Macedonian belongs to).

From time immemorial; from the Hellenistic age till now; Greek is the oldest and most continuously spoken language in all of Europe, whereby the evolution of the language is so slight in linguistic comparisons with other languages, that modern Greeks can actually make sense of ancient Greek, and where Socrates could have easily have been able to read a modern Greek paper.

The evidence is voluminous; endless generations of Greek writers, poets and philosophers have left actual texts and copies of their works from 750Bc until today; the most documented literary tradition in the world, and one that has been the most studied and documented by world academicians.

So in respect of the absurdist, delusional, false, jingoistic, propagandist and child-like efforts of our Serbo-Bulgar pseudo-Macedonian Slav neighbours in their hate-filled anti-Greek propaganda campaign ... these should be taken with a grain of salt.... a weak and pathetic effort and one that is discredited upon the moment of their utterance from their lips...

The empirical and historical evidence at hand - the linguistic, historical, political, social, cultural and anthropological evidence - attests to the ethnic identity of the citizenry of FYROM; that they are Serbo-Bulgar Slavs in origin, whose language belongs to the south Slavic language group of centum languages, belonging to the indo-European language group, and which is an amalgam of Serbo-Bulgarian, and which has no tie or historical relationship whatsoever to the Ancient north-western Greek dialect of Macedonian

nei hoa ma, ponk kai ley mou nai Makedonia yna zehi tse

Tout est calme dans la ville et les vents de Neptune

Tout est calme dans la ville et les vents de Neptune

to the Ram / a M. le Belier -

Thanks for the URL advice; I've never tried creating one before, but my wife knows IT much better than I do, so I'll ask her tonight and set one up. Thanks again !

Cornelius, i am afraid that you cannot
do it the only thing that you can can do is create a URL or make use of it
then refer to it in your posting.

Madame

Enchanté de faire votre conaissance, à peu pret
d'accord ,le turque s'est emprenté de beaucoup
d'arabe,et ainsi soit'il laison les Albanais pour le moment.

a Liberte/Cherie : je suis tout a fait d'accord. Ce que vous dites ("c'a que tu dites meneer", en bruxellois) a raison. (For non-French speakers, that means we agree, and I was just using a bit of Brussels argot !) Let's bring a bit of common sense to all this bickering. It's about time there was sensible discussion between the two sides rather than all this Balkan posturing rather along Albanian blood-feud lines (Kanun of Lek etc.

Et, Madame/ Mademoiselle Liberte Cherie, entretemps je vous souhaite l'assurance de mes sentiments bien distinguees

(signe)

Cornelius van Helsing (maitre en jurisprudence en ce qui concerne les apparitions apres-mort.)

I have been working for about 10 years in Balkan countries . I am not a philologist but I learned by myself more than the basics of Serbo Croatian (Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia, Crna Gora), Czech, Bulgarian, and I dared to begin with Russian. For the sake of curiosity and by lazyness I also studied Romanian (I am French speaking). I lately began Turkish. It is amazing how many words those turks have spread in the Balkan Slavonic languages. Point!
It is quite funny and stupid but I do not know perfectly any of the languages I quoted,but when I crossed the borders of Macedonia, I could easily read and understand. There are some differences with Bulgarian but not that much. Serbian and Bulgarian are also quite the same, exception made on a grammatical point of view. Of course there are a lot of “false friends” between Slavonic languages words that are the same but mean different things) but you can cross the borders and still understand the language.
For me Macedonian is definitely a Slavonic language.
I have been trying to follow the dispute between Greece and Macedonia for the name. And I give up. (As I give up to understand the hassle in my own country between Flanders and Wallonia.).
Each countries may go up to the prehistory to catch all arguments, It won’t help I think. All this academic wind -making want help “Joe the Plumber”.
Is there is some hidden agenda behind the attitude of Greece for refusing the access to NATO for Macedonia? Perhaps afraid from Albanian minorities? What else?
Montenegro is at the point of bankruptcy, the economical situation of Skolpje is not ideal; Kosovo is still a country between parenthesis. I think it is not the right time to make fuss about names.
Friendly yours.

Rather hoping for some help from the Ram on this one - I have successfully scanned the German 1916 Ethnic/Linguistic map of Europe onto my computer - it comes out as a JPEG file of 1.6MB - but I cannot yet work out how to post it onto our Sofia Echo site. All advice gratefully received ! (If all else fails, nominate for me a trusted and neutral third-party email address, and I shall happily email it there. Believe me, once you see the quantity of information the German cartographers got onto that map in 1916 - when they were supposed to be at war with my country - you can only be impressed. Also, it is quite impossible to fake even with today's technology - sorry , must rush to disconnect the printing press churning out 300 euro notes in the bathroom (don't laugh - this happened last week in the UK, and the man concerned was aged 83 !)

Oh dear, there was I hoping that there might be an Outbreak of Peace, Truth and Reconciliation on this site, given that I and The Ram have now found common cause.
Peter - you may have a couple of good points to make but you are f**cking up the argument by making too many points at one time in a non-structured way. This is your "friend" talking - and yes, I can muster six languages too if required - but please shut up for a moment. I am now trying to analyse some 1916 German-language material that is of the highest international provenenance and which will probably prove that each side is about 50% right, which is not a bad basis for mediating a disagreement and reaching an agreed conclusion. So will you please shut up, stop posting, and let me get on with it.
Thanks in advance - dziekuje z gory - blagodariyu - efkharisto polu - acui labai (bet you don't know that one !) - bolshoyie spasibo. God, I think Janet at least agrees with me - let us try to mediate some sort of agreed conclusion out of this war of interminable words (and apologies for having been a bit lengthy myself.)

I could not pass the opportunity to answer few Greek fabricationd, but first,above comment is not my of Mar.19,23:28
Greg,the Ancient Macedonian language was not same as the Ancient Hellen.The Ancient Macedonian language is older than that of the Ancient Hellens.Todays Macedonian language does have words from the Antiquity,same I believe the Greek language has some resemblance.I do base this to the reasont discovery of the Unzi and Kalash people in Pakistan whose language containes same words.For you to claim, the Ancient Macedonians spoke the Greek language is absurd.You yourself do not understand the Ancient Hellenic language.I am saying this because I have come accross a Ancient Hellenic book written in Greek alphabet,but very different language.Not one word could have been understood. Ram,are you playing to non-Balkan audience on languages?This constant falsification is becoming to be a very stupid dialogue. The Macedonians can understand Bulgarian,Serbian,Polish,Ukrainian,Russian,Slovak etc.These languages happened to be Slavic. Dr. Cornelius who speaks Polish I assume can tell you that it is so.David the Second can tell you the same. Ram, the Macedonian language was found to be on its own on the tree of languages,how can you say it is a dialect of the Bulgarian language? Jakov,are you lost for words? Pyrros,the Pontius were not expelled from Turkey in 1925.This was an exchange of people with different religion,not ethnicity.Furthermore,the Greek government re-setled them in the occupied Macedonia in an attempt to Hellenize the indigenous Macedonian people.Why, not one familly was re-settled south of Macedonia?.These people did not even spoke Greek.We in Greek Macedonia called them "Prosfigi". With the Metaxa dictartoship many Macedonians were expelled to Bulgaria and their property consficated and given to the Prosfigi. Look,you can make believe the Northern and Western European people who have no interest in the Balkan history,my friend,you cannot ram this through the Balkan people,the fabrications of Greece. Finaly to Janet.Would you please get a life for yourself,and oppose me on the real history if you can!Lets stop the personal vendeta and get into a more substantive matters!. It is true,you Greeks like to burn the candle from both ends and expect not to get burned?.Like I said,I speak four languages and understand three more just to get me by.Now,what ethnicity should I claim,according to the Greek claim on ethnicity?.Not all Hellenic speakers were Hellens in the Ancient World.

To Corneliius
My pleasure glad to have helped

to the Ram - very many and sincere thanks for that keyboard utility; it seems pretty powerful, and certainly would have solved my German problem. (Browsing through it reminded me of distant afternoons mastering French AZERTY keyboards, and more recent ones trying to send an English-language email from a Moldovan keyboard where half the utilities were in Romanian and the other half in Russian, like putting more 'bumaga' in the printer.) Many thanks once again, anyway, most appreciated. (Janet, please note truce !)

to the Ram: thanks for the keyboard utility (seriously!) - I'll try it out off-line on a couple of drafts first of all. You're quite right about Flamand/ Flemish and Neerlandais/ Dutch being different - although they are supposed to be the same in the form of ABN (Algemene Beschaaft Nederlands), they most certainly are not in practice. Firstly, the verbal accent is very different - anyone speaking 'Hollands' sticks out like a sore thumb in Flanders - and secondly the vocabulary is different on commonplace items; each language has imported French words, but not the same ones ! In particular, the local Brussels dialect uses a great deal of French words within a Flemish grammatical structure. (Example of agent de police / politieagent pulling up a motorist for going too fast: "Ik constate, Minnike, dat U de maximale vitesse hebt depasseerd") This is not what a 'politieman' in Amsterdam would say at all - not one word is the same !)

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained .

Sorry - just spotted another very minor typo, German not being my first language. The correct Google key is: "Laender-und Voelkerkarte Europas", with a hyphen after the 'Laender' (the original text has umlauten in Lander and Volkerkarte, but my UK keyboard cannot do these.) Anyway, this key should definitely work; it did when I tried it yesterday. Meanwhile, I'll try to scan the relevant part of the ethnic/linguistic map, though putting a 1916 colour document onto a 2005 scanner does seem a bit unusual. As for LiberteCherie - mijn schaatje, ik wil graag U foutieren, als zeggen wij in vlaamstaalige Belgie, AUB. Zonder dank ! Ik zal beter graag Engels schrijven (brief translation: sod off LiberteCherie, and I'll stick to English. But I can use Flemish/Dutch if I need to.)

Now you see boys, we can have a civil dialogue after all. Consider Dr Cornelius as the Opposition Party, it's his job to say you are wrong and it is after all good practice on your debating skills. However, let's keep the hate at minimum and never mind Peter, the poor old bloke has the Greek mafia and a few gypsies after him (not a good combination). Well what do you expect from the diaspora? They seem to have too much time on their hands and thus devote themselves to the old country even more than the actual inhabitants. As they say it in English, beware of men who think too much.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained .

Cornelius mijn jongske, gij kunt nogal veel babbelen.
здрасти

To Cornelius
Nobody asks you to neither Hellenophobe or Greek-hater
by the way your command of English
certainly does not make you Bulgarian
Anyway Domashna rakia out of plum
is a must
Thanks to Janet for sorting things
out.

NB block letters are still my favorite regardless of etiquette
over twenty five years in the computer industry I think
I can discern the keyboard.
That wraps it up for today.

Well, at last the Ram has located the correct key on his keyboard !
As for Holden, I can't be "obsessed" by him if I haven't read his book yet, can I, stoopid ?

I have now found another Grade 1 information source, held in the US National Archive, the UK National Archive, the Polish National Archive and (I presume) the Greek National Archive. This is a 1916 study of the entire ethnic and linguistic map of Europe carried out in Berlin. The Google reference is (sorry this is in German, but that's how it works): Laender und Voelkerkarte Europas. The author is a Professor Dietrich Schaefer, but if you key this into Google it confuses things. Anyway, this is internationally recognised source material, and the picture it gives of Greece does not accord with that portrayed by the Greek government. Anyway, in line with reputable academic convention, I am naming and signposting my source before commenting on it. (I have actually got my own copy of it, bought in Krakow in 1965 for 20 old zlotys, but that's another story !)

Janet, It may be so but I think the guy is obsessed by ouzo and by Holden

Thanks Janet - that is indeed my role in all this. I am certainly not a "Greek-hater" or Hellenophobe. (To the Ram - as I have not yet read Holden's book, I cannot yet have formed a view about it. Also, please work out where the lower-case shift key is on your computer. It's really quite easy to find.) As for "peaceful, contented, and happy", this also applies to Greek sheep (as per the Feta cheese CD distributed free from the Greek stand at the London Food Exhibition on 15-18 March. This makes some odd claims about its quality status (such as being matured in brine in old 5-litre petrol cans, but I did promise Janet that I wouldn't do a "Peter" and rant on about Feta, so I'll stop now.) The Ram and Pyrros may wonder about how as a "Bulgarian" I managed to get to the London Food Exhibition as a short daily excursion, but that is because I have learned from my adversary Count Dracula how to teleport myself over long distances.

I think Dr Cornelius is just playing the Devil's advocate here. I believe he is not a Greek hater like Peter Janovski so don't get get all raw over this.

TO PYROS LAGOS
IT SEEMS THAT OUR FRIEND CORNELIUS
DRAWS HIS KNOWLEDGE ABOUT GREECE
AND GREEKS FROM HOLDEN'S BOOK, AN OBSESSION HE HAS WITH THE LATTER
HE MIXES UP POLITICAL INTRIGUES
TRIGERED BY GEOPOLITICAL ISSUES
WHICH WERE ALSO COMMON IN THE ANCIENT WORLD AND EVEN MORE COMMON IN THE ANCIENT GREEK WORLD.
ANYWAY I WOULD SPEAK OF COWS IF I WERE YOU CORNELIUS YOU HAVE PLENTLY OF THEM IN NETHERLANDS
DON'T YOU?ARE THEY OF CALM AND SERENE NATURE I WONDER?

to the Ram: Two words of advice - posting in capital letters / upper case is universally regarded as very bad blogging etiquette (the equivalent of shouting), and also try to take more water with your ouzo next time. (On second thoughts, maybe you don't know how the "Caps Lock" shift works on a keyboard - it is on the left next to the Tab key.)

TO CORNELIUS :YOU ARE A SURE A DISGRACE AND DISAPOINTEMENT TO ACADEMIC SOCIETY . I CAN.T TELL ABOUT THE ANNCIENT AND RESPECTABLE UNIVERSITIES OF LEYDEN AND CRACOW BUT I AM SURE OF ONE THING YOU NAME-DROPPER NEVER PASSED THE THRESHOLD OF CAMBRIDGE.
TO LAGOS :"NEVER MY FRIEND THROW GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD MONDY" "
I FINALLY FOUND OUT THAT I WAS LOSING MY TIME .
MNOGO VI BLAGOUDARIM ZA FSISKI.
NB THE BULGARIAN ACADEMEY OF SCIENCE NEVER HAS RATIFIED
THE NOTION OF A SEPARATE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE AS EXISTING
BUT CONSIDERS IT A DIALECT OF SOUTH SLAVONIC ORIGIN.

Sorry - rule no. 1 is always to admit to typos before somebody else picks them up. In the previous posting I should have said "omikron" and not "omega". Apologies.

Oh come on, Pyros Lagos, "peaceful, contented and happy" Greeks makes them sound like a herd of dairy cows ! Think back to Cyprus in 1974 and the fall of the Makarios government provoked by the Athens Junta ("when Greek meets Greek " !) and then tell me how peaceful, contented and happy they were. Or in the Civil War of 1944-45, for that matter. I'll say no more until I've read David Holden's book "Greece without Columns", which poses an interesting alternative view of recent Greek history. (Oh, and by the way, I was always taught in school that it was "Hoi Polloi" and not "Oi Polloi", as there is an aspirate sign over the first omega. But then I'm only an ignorant peasant.)

When i first stumbled upon this post accidentaly, i thought i would contribute with some considered academic facts to balance the obvious anti-Greek flavour inherent by Pietrov the Bulgarian, and Dr. Helsingovski etc,etc... it amazes me that no one here has even a rudimentary knowledge of either Ancient or Modern History, as there would not have been any arguments thus far.

History has occured; it is a fact that cannot be altered by the uneducated opinion of lay-people.

Just one final point regarding popluation echanges, vis-a-vis Greece and Turkey circa 1925;
note that when Greeks were explelled and returned to Greece: they weren't Turks, but Greek.

The whole of western Asia Minor was inhabited and belonged to the Greek world since the second millenia B.C. Descendants of the Athenians, Spartans and Ancient Macedonians - the three dominant Greek peoples of ancient Greece - who built and established magnificent cities in their hundreds.

When the Ottoman Turks invaded and established themselves in Asia Minor,these Greeks were still there, but were finally expelled in the twentieth Century, wiping out four thousand years of Greek history in western Asia Minor, and the only thing that remains are their magnificent monuments; a sentinal of ancient Hellenic achievements.

So when these Greeks did return to Greece; it was a home coming, a return to the land wence they came from - blood returning to blood - that, Mr Van Helsingovski are the facts regarding the Asia Minor Greeks: a fact which is conveniently distorted by ignorant neophytes like yourself , and in the jingoistic Greek hating Fyromian-Bulgar Slavs like Pietrov the Bulgarian.

In regards to you Mr Pietrov; the manner in which you have mis-quoted one of my parragraphs in this post, completely out of context to the meaning and intent of the whole piece, again displays your child-like naivette and your eclectic skill at copying and pasting comments and facts out of context; pathetic really.

In respect to Isocrates and Demosthenes; again, your misinformation and lack of facts is stunning and pathetic to say the least.

Enjoy your delusion and keep sucking that yoghurt and crunching those peppers, and every time you look in the mirror it is a Bulgarian you will see.

Also,the academic world is still awaiting for the fantasmagorical Professor Pietrov Popovski to reveal this new stunning and magical evidence that proves that:

A) There actually is such a thing as a "Macedonian" language; &

B) Reveal the secret history of this "magic" language and why it has been hidden from the academic world for thousands of years, and why there is no corrobarative evidence to support its existence?

It is from dissapointment really, that the antics of these peasant Fyromian Bulgarian Slavs that has unfortunately awakened usually peaceful,contented and happy Greeks to wage a war in our defence,a defence which really is not necessary; for after thousands of years of continuous conflict, we finally that we had a chance at peace; but obviously not.

I usually spend my time alternating from either enjoying my own Greek culture, or switching to listening to classical music and reading Neitche, or Camus, sculpting or painting; but if its war that you want: MOLON LABE - 'come and take them'.

PS: Pietrov; for your personal edification and education,Google my name Pyrros Lagos on the net, and you will enjoy some of the articles that i have written - good bye to the uneducated Barbarians on this post - it is a shame that four thousand years of European civilisation and learning has not either equiped you, nor elevated you to a level whereby an objective investigation of the facts can be conducted as your "OI POLLOI" mentality becomes an obvious 'Berlin wall' like impediment.

To Peter, a gypsy's curse goes where the skilled master directs it to go, there is no what goes around, comes around in the gypsy world. You have infuriated the Roma people and now we have a special present for you: as you are a cancer to the human race, so shall you suffer the cancer of cancers. If you anger us any further, we shall make the curse inheritable.

Peter, I would pay the Greek Government to assassinate you and not because you think you speak the "truth" but because you are a wretched old man that doesn't get a hint and bow out gracefully. Cyberspace would be a more happier place a million fold with out you as David hinted. If you think you are speaking the truth there are better ways of getting your message across to the general public which include Greeks. If the Apostle Paul acted in the same manner as you did when he entered Athens to tell the Greeks their gods are false, I believe the Greeks would still be polytheists today and would have given the Apostle the boot. xoxo

Well, I still think The Ram is a bit pissed and incapable of serious discussion. As they say in Lithuania: "Labanaktis" (this isn't a Slav language so should therefore be acceptable. It simply means "good night".)

The same comment by a person who misses the forest a tree when he has nothing to refute.
the erratum is 1977 and not 1877
spokoino blagodaria

Methinks that The Ram - who got his dates wrong by a mere century - has been imbibing again. Possibly ouzo, possibly something stronger. Dear Ram, do try only to post on this (or any other) site when you are sober. Efkharisto polu.

Once again you divulged yourself
as a misleading person, you jackass the book "Greece without Columns" was published in 1972 the late Holden survived until 1877 by 1976
he committed a "mistake" The House of Saud which cost him his life
I am sick and tired of your Ristov ,American Chronicle,and Maknews propaganda.
Hail Helsing jackass

Peter - you may have a better point than you realise, but why not "give it a rest" for the time being and say no more ? Otherwise you risk "making the cold war boiling hot", as was said about Kruschev in the 1960s. As they say in Poland: "Spokoj", or "Keep quiet", at least for now.

Janet,the curse that goes around,comes around,dont you forget. You see,once someone writes the truth,Greeks will assasinate them.The shameles Greeks will do everything to falsify the history.My question is;Why is Greece not taking on the FM of Macedonia on the joint project of Balkan history?.Do you realy know why? I do!

Janet - there may genuinely be a bit more to this 'curse' business than we had thought. One of the names Peter quotes - David Holden -was assassinated in Cairo in 1977 after having written a book critical of post-1945 Greece and its government and treatment of minorities. (Look it up in Google if you want to check.) I've taken steps to get hold of a second-hand copy of the book, so I'd rather not post any more till I've read it and formed my own view. (David Holden until his death was Chief Foreign Correspondent of the Sunday Times, the UK's most serious Sunday newspaper, so he was no amateur sleuth.)

Oh dear, it looks like Peter decided to murder us by boring us to death with that obese post of his. Did anyone actually attempt to read it? My question is the general population is when does this gypsy curse kick in? Cyberspace will explode if Peter lives another day to post another of his bullish posts. I think his post is so obese, it deserves its own postal code

Not sure what point the Ram is trying to make, but as he is posting at 22.14 hrs CET maybe he has had a well-deserved drink or three ?

Hello there, did I hit a soft point?
Feta is certainly not the problem
i am sure that a person of your education can understand that. "if you hand a finger to the wrong guy you can lose your arm" or less dramatic "they came in for the weekend and stayed a fortnight"
history repeats itself to those with short memories,SAD I AGREE BUT TRUE.Romances during war time
in both novels give us wonderful
aspirations if met by the right
people, if not the whole structure is doomed. Now about the Turks and Cyprus it's the same issue as the one between Arabs and Israel
both are the brain-children
of the DIVIDE AND CONQUER moto,

Mr. Pyrros Lagos,here is one of your paragraph;"Theories which have no relevance and do not apply you are interpreting modern linguistic usages whereby a citizen of any modern state might be utilising that nations language as the functional "franca lingua" and not necessary belongs to that etnic group, and in todays 21st century world, you are correct. Here is a quote from Polybius "speakers of same language"whith which the Greek fellow qanted to use as proof that Ancient Macedonians spoke the same language as the Ancient Greeks and thus,they must be classed as Greeks. Now, these same Greeks are burning the candle from the other end and want to argue the point but this time, since it suits their purpose, in the opposite direction: namely that "linguistic criteria are not only insufficient to denote etnic naunces in the Balkans but they can be misleading". Greeks are the true students of the art of manipulation. As a matter of fact, you have not only mastered the art of manipulating the text but have brought it to another level, the level of highest distinction. Like so many other things that you Greeks have invented this, the art of fabrication,is deservedly yours. Dr. Thomas Arnold,the founder of the school "Ethos" in 19th century in England, suggested that fabricating Greek legents will profoundly bimprove the English image, even more than the Greek image. David Holder was the chief foreigne corespondent for the Londin Sunday Times. He revealed in his book "Greece without Columns" that the Greek treasured assumption is a delusion and Greek legent wishfull fantasies". A Greek professor of archeology Manolis Andronicos wrote;" Macedonia should be considered the cradle of human history." The English statesman William Gladstons noblr cry was "Macedonia for the Macedonians" Captain P.H. Evans on Sept. 16,1943 was dropped into Northern Greece, as British liason officer.In short,he knew nothing about Macedonia,like all foreigners who had been hoodwinked by official Greek propaganda.He expected to find only Greek but instead he found a Macedonian World. He wrote "The Balkan region is Macedonia by nature and not Greek".He observed that the Greek language in Northern Greece was regarded as a foreigne language and not the Greek were distrusted as something alien in the frell sense of the word and viewed as foreigners in Macedonia". In the 1922-26 exchange of people between Greece and Turkey,the real exchange was on religious grounds,not on ethnicity.This is true even from before.In the book "The Vlahs,the history of the Balkan people" on page 139 T. J.Winifrith says:"One of Greeces first and best Prime Ministers was John Kolettis, a Vlah who dressed like a Turk and had been court physician to Ali Pasha"On pages 119 and 120 same Author says "Elswhere there is a further source of confusion with massive immigration of Albanians into Greece, this is the true identity of the Modern Greeks.In the days when Modern Greece was molded into a nation,Vlahs, a latin speaking people, and Albanians were the primery sources of raw materials for the "making of the Modern Greeks". Lets get back to the question of Macedonia and Macedonians.Not long ago Greek Ambassador to Macedonia,Mrs.Dora Grosomanidou was promptly fired for her statement that "Athens should ackmowledge the fact there are Macedonians living there as well as that Macedonia has been around before Greece was."The Athens museum curator was fired for refusing to hide Macedonian relics. Vallianatos was fired by Papandreu for advocating that there are Macedonians in Greece. Athena Skoulariki a sociology professor at the University of Crete says,"The Greek arguments are not convincing because it is fundamental right of all people to freely choose their name. We insist that our neighbor has no right to use the name Macedonia,ignoring the fact that durring the 19th and 20th century there was a wider region called Macedonia." Approximatly 40 years ago there was a research done on languages in Europe,and it was found that the Macedonian language was on its own on the tree of languages. The question that comes ones mind is;Why is there a problem for Greece with Northern Greece but not elsewhere,also why Greece setled the Pontious in Greek Macedonia as opose to inland in proper Greece? What was the real purpose? These people did not even spoke Greek as long as 1948 that I know of. Isocrates and Demosthenes were right when they made the distinction between the Hellens and Macedonians in 337 BC.Once more,you cannot burn the candle from both ends and expect not to get burned.

Greg - precisely my point. Forget ould Europe (especially its age-old Balkan memories and blood-feuds ) and get on with living life at the present. So Greece - forget about age-old Macedon, Serbia - forget about the Battle of Kosovo Polje in 1361, and let's get on with Real Life. (The Poles and Lithuanians have both very sensibly decided to forget the Battle of Tannenburg, 1425, which they won againt the Teutonic Knights (aka the Germans), so why doesn't everybody else in Europe do the same thing ?) Greeks and ex-Yugoslavs - slight exception here for the Slovenes, who are better - seem to have ago-old grudge memories but no clear idea about where to go for the future except back to the past.

You know, I have seen the phenomena where David seems to suggest that Northern Europe is more "special" than any other part of Europe. And maybe that is true however Northern Europe is nothing compared to Australia, Canada and New Zealand. After all, these countries produce the most livable cities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Most_Livable_Cities) whereby Vancouver is the best followed by Melbourne.

My point is David, what southern Europe is to Northern Europe, is the same as what Northern Europe is to the New World (Australia, Canada etc) So I wouldn't judge the rest of Europe with airs, because in the scheme of thing you are the same to us.

Out with the old, in with the New

The "Birds without Wings" story is actually set in Telmessos (remember the name? All Greeks with 1000-year memories should.) These days it is known by its Turkish name of Fethiye. Cephalonia is the site of the earlier book "Captain Corelli's Mandolin". It would be helpul if my critics could learn to tell one book from another; most children do by the age of 7 or so.

I agree, generalizations do not apply to populations and there is always an exception the rule. You, know there has been a high number of Turkish immigrants to Germany so I guess "David's Theory of Populations Genetics " would interpret this by stating that Germans are therefore not pure Germans but have Turkish blood....sounds logical doesn't it?

double-dutch the story is set in Eskibahce and not in Cepholonia

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained .

Well I will also make a suggestion to you and take a population genetics courses. So if we agree Turks were moved to Greece, and you say modern Greeks have Turkish blood then let me tell you it is impossible to make generalizations on the genetic make of a population as genetics and population dynamics are much more complex (word advice, generalizations on genetics exams tends to result in a failure)

According to your logic, then since Ukrainian immigrants during the Cold War moved to Canada then therefore Canadians have Ukrainian blood. Similarly, due to the increase of Asian immigrants to Australia then therefore Australians have Asian blood. You see, your generalizations on populations are not true since populations dynamics are complex considering they are influence by the environment, social influences and biology.

I also suggest you read on the history of the Ionian Islands which were under Venetian, French and finally British rule. The British have published many articles that prove the distinct Greek character of the mentioned islands since the Byzantine Empire and their important role in the War of Independence against the Ottomans for as the British said it, Greece would not be today if it were not the preservation of these islands from the Ottomans.

Oh, considering that the largest number of immigrants to the UK these days are Indians then therefore according to you Britain has Indian blood and you David are not pure British but part Indian...

Well, I suggest that MJ reads Louis de Bernieres book "Birds without Wings" before posting anything else about the 1924-26 Greek/Turkish population exchanges - this is the writer whose research on wartime Cephalonia was so thorough as to prompt a best-selling novel and a major film, so I think he knows his facts. "Birds without Wings" didn't sell so well as, frankly, many people in northern Europe are simply bored with Greece and its ethnic obsessions and constant quarrels with Turks, Albanians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and even sometimes the Italians (have I left anybody out ?) The plain fact is that 1983 was far too early to admit Greece into the EU, and that it has abused its position there ever since. (Feta cheese is but one of many examples)

What Christian Turks are you talking about? They practically did not exist according to the Turkish census in those days. In fact, UN sources have found that it was only recently that a very small number of Christian Turks have began to emerge and formed their own church with their own patriarch funded by the Grey Wolves and the Government as way to cause more problems to the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople. YOur logic is seriously flaw, there is no Athens accepted Turks and even if it was part of the Treaty you yourself have admitted Greece has indeed broken several rules so what makes you think they honoured this one? Also, you still havent addressed the problem of "genetic" findings on the part of Skopje. They clearly state that modern Greeks have no relation to any of the indigenous Mediterranean population including Turks but are apparently Ethiopian. So on the one hand you say we have Turkish blood but on the other hand we are Ethipians.....sorry David but this is pure contradiction. It has been a tactic of Skopje to doubt the ethnicity of modern Greeks which you seem to support and you have been caught juxtaposing your theories. Also, I would also like to remind you that not all of Greece was under the Ottoman Empire, their respective population have been recorded to be continuous since the Byzantine Empire.

MJ - there is a great deal of evidence that the 1924-26 population exchanges did in fact export a number of Moslem Greeks into Turkey and Christian Turks into Greece (and Crete): the whole operation was a bit of a brutal bodge-up on both sides, as the writer Louis de Bernieres makes very clear in his book "Birds Without Wings".

Secondly, and more seriously, to base any state name, boundaries, or jurisdiction, on the basis of racial genetic data such as you seem to be proposing, is deeply abhorrent, objectionable, against the UN Charter, and certainly against the Treaty of Rome and its successors. The words "racist" and "ethnic cleansing" are two of the first that come to mind. The words "Third Reich" and "Herrenvolk" come to mind next. Any European state that contemplates this deserves to be expelled from the EU and the UN. (I know that Greece has broken more than its fair share of EU rules - and I did undertake not to mention the "feta" cheese fiasco ever again - but this one takes the proverbial biscuit !) One can begin to understand why the Turks invaded Cyprus in 1974....

Indeed David, the past is the past however the government of Skopje is manipulating its people by distorting its past which is directly affecting Greece otherwise we wouldn't be here having this debate.

I also refute your belief that the immigrants from Turkey were Turkish by blood and genetics. First of all, it is a phenomena in Greece and Russia where religion does indeed equal ethnicity (Characteristic of the Orthodox Church hence Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox etc). If you meet a Russian or Greek then 99% of the times they are Orthodox Christian. Turks are MUSLIMS and they did not immigrate to Greece. Even today, there is a Greek minority in Constantinople (of which the EU court has ordered to respect their rights). These people although are Turkish citizens are Greeks in ethnicity like those who took part of the population exchange. Greece would not have accepted a bunch of Turks even if they were Christians, they accepted Greek Nationals only. According to your logic, the Turks who left Greece for Turkey were actually Greeks who were Muslims and therefore the present day Turks have Greek blood.

Funny thing is David, according to Peter and those crazy Skopjan scientist is that the Greek DNA shows no relation to any of the inhabitants of the Balkans including Turkey but rather Greeks are related to subsaharan Africans/Ethiopians so do you see the contradiction here?

On the one hand you accuse Greeks of being Albanians and Turks but then you contradict yourselves by saying that DNA "tests" proves Greeks are Africans....so which on is it?

Pyros Lagos - it is indeed van Helsing, and not Helsinski, and I am not one of those seemingly hated Slavs. What you say is perfectly good Ancient History (though some detailed points might be debated), but is not relevant to the modern world. We are living in 2009 AD, not BC. If we were to superimpose pre-Christian place names on modern Europe, the EU would be a strange place indeed. The last political movement that tried to do this was the Nazis, who managed to re-invent early German history with some temporary success, and look what happened to them ! If the present-day Skopje government wants to call their republic "Macedonia", let them do so (although English-speaking purists such as me might prefer the correct term "Macedon".) It is geographically correct, even though the ethnic origins are lost in the mists of time. And the ethnic origins of many present-day Greeks are muddied by the 1924-26 population exchanges with Turkey, which were explicitly done on the basis of religion and not ethnicity. So rather more Greeks have Turkish blood than they would care to admit (and vice versa). Best to leave all this alone and concentrate on running a republic in the twenty-first century without harking back to the mythical past.

Firstly, to Dr Van Helsing, or is it Dr Van Helingovski??

You are juxtaposing your modern linguistical sensibilities and multicultural theories & arguments over the ancient Helladic Peninsular and ancient world.

Theories which have no relevance and do not apply; you are interpreting modern linguistic usages; whereby a citizen of any modern state might be utilising that nation's language as the functional 'franca lingua', and not necessarily belong to that ethnic Group; and in today’s 21st century world, you are correct.

However, in the ancient world, that was different; your linguistic theories are inaccurate and do not apply: for the peoples of the Ancient Helladic peninsular were indeed homogenous, where there was no multiculturalism, or multi-ethnism in the modern sense; and your base and rudimentary historical knowledge of the ancient world surprises me, for if you were knowledgeable in this, you would have known this.

The peoples of the ancient Helladic peninsular all derived from common Greek tribes, had a common language - albeit using differing dialects - had common social, cultural, religious and linguistic inheritances which derived out of the common historical national evolution and experience; therefore language in the Ancient Helladic peninsular did indeed identify the race of the language speakers, so in this instance you are incorrect.

In the ancient Macedonians speaking a north-western Aeolic-Doric Greek dialect; which was identical to the language spoken by the Thessalians, Epirotans, Thesprotians and Aetolia-Acharnanians; the Ancient Macedonians were a Dorian Greek people belonging to the north-western language, religious, social and cultural group, as their fellow north-western kin.

Another interesting fact which bound all these north-western Greek peoples, was that they all lived under a Homeric hereditary monarchical political system; completely different and antithetical to their more advanced southern Greek kin-folk.

In response to Peter/Pietrov the Bulgarian; your reading and interpretation of Demosthenes’ the 'Phillipics' again is incorrect; remember the Demosthenes was a politician who used flowery and charged rhetoric which in most cases the connotations was never literal; and where the real enemies were not Macedonians Versus Greeks in the Battle of Chaeronea, but northern Greeks versus Southern Greeks. The Macedonians on one side with their kindred states, and Athens on the other side with their southern Allies, Any historian will tell you this- it’s a basic fact- and one can surmise this fact oneself in simply reading the roll call of combatants; whereby this North-South divide becomes apparent.

In regards to Achilles being racist; i don't think he was; he is just stating a fact; that Fyromians are Bulgarian Slavs & the Ancient Macedonians were Greek - and that Fyromians have no link or relationship to the historical Greek peoples of Ancient Macedonia in no way at all.

NOpe, sorry Peter, I'm not scarred. After all, I'm not the one who has been cursed by a gypsy. Maybe Dr Cornelius can explain this but I do believe even Vampires are afraid of Gypsies. Well I hope you "don't" get arthritis Peter, after all we would surely "miss" you on cyberspace

"they were striving to safeguard the holy soil of Hellas from the attack of the Macedoniana."

nice misinterpretation of history Peter, you are the sole definition of an idiot. If you had a brain you would realise that they are referring to protecting the democracy of Greece which the Greek Macedonians threatened with their monarchy and imperialist ambitions.

The Athenians wrote the same thing against the Spartans (protect the holy soil of Hellas), does that make the Spartans any less Greek? Also you do not know how to read or write ancient Greek so don't be an idiot and offer to translate. Similarly, only gypsies in another era said "hide under your wife's skirt" but in your case Peter it would be "hide in your boyfriend's pants"

Also, if the Macedonians were not Greek then why did the Romans and Persians refer to them as such? You are a shame to the Slavic world.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IN BEING A SLAV CORNELIUS I QUITE AGREE , I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR "SOPHISMA"
IT SOUNDS A BIT SHALLOW THINKING
THOUGH QUITE LOGICAL
I AM SURE YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THIS

To Achilles,There is an old saying in Polish"Oshle,oshle,sam pisalesh,sam nie rozumiesh"Yransalation "Jackass, jackass,you written it yourself and dont understand it".The question is,why Demosthenes written for the fallen Hellens at Chaeronea in 337 BC?Why did he ignored the fallen Macedonians? Whu did he said "Time whose oerseeng eye records all human action, bear word to mankind what fate was suffered, how striving to safeguard the HOLY SOIL of HELLAS, upon Boeotias plain we died" Do you see the difference? The distinction between Greeks and Macedonians is explicit; "HOW STRIVING TO SAFEGUARD THE HOLY SOIL OF HELLAS_WE DIED". They were striving to safeguard the holy soil of Hellas from the attack of the Macedoniana.Would you want me to transalate it to Greek for you? You think,you understand what this historian was writting in 337 BC who was on the spot to record the history,or are you like the Greek government,Fabricate,fabricate history? Who do you think you will convince that Ancient Hellens or Ancient Macedonians have any ,absolutly any connection to you today, or they had any connection between the two Ancient people? Your mythology does not support the real history. Take Macedonias offer to research the Balkan history,than you can claim what is yours and we what is ours.What is Greece afraid of for not taking this offer? Let me tell you,Greece is running scared of loosing the falsified and stolen Macedonian history,thats what Greece is afraid of! Mr. on the Slavic language;there are over 300 million people speak Slavic,but they are not labeled like Greece does calling us"Slavo-Makedoni"Do you call Serbs,Bulgars,Russians Slavo-Russian?You are idiots,period!

The Herodotus quotation could just as eaily have been made (mutatis mutandis) by Ian Smith in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe: "For I am British, and also Rhodesian etc". Any dominant colonial power would say the same thing, whatever the actual ethnicity of the speaker. As for the status of Macedon (sic) in late Biblical times, we have the account of St Paul (himself no stranger to Greece and who spoke Greek) about the separate nature of Macedon (Acts of the Apostles, chapters 16 to 21). Naturally the elders of Macedon at that time spoke Greek - the "Koine" of the Near East - in the same way as black Zimbabweans use English. But that doesn't make them British (nor would they want to be!), and nor did it make the then Macedonians Greeks. Seems historically quite simple to me.

They have chosen Turkey over the traditional friend of the Slavs. They are brothers in "Muhammad" now.

If the Skopjans are Macedonians, then why did they change their language from Greek (the language of the ancient Macedonians) to a Slavic language that is suspiciously similar to Bulgarian? Why change their alphabet from Greek to Slavic? Why would Cyril and Methodius in the Medieval Ages give them an alphabet if they already had the Greek alphabet? Not very logical is it.

Also I agree with Dan, traditionally Slavs and Greeks are fraternal considering the same religion and such...Constantinople = Second Rome, Moscow = Third Rome etc. But I guess there is an exception to every rule that is Skopje. The Russians and Ukrainians refer to us as the "Mother Church" and "Brothers in Christ" but the Skopjans call us "Nazis". Their loss.

At the same it is still possible that the ancient Macedonians were Greek, for why else did they refer to themselves as such on many occasions?

"For I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery". Herodotus IX, 45, 2

If I wasn't Greek, I wouldn't call myself Greek and let us not forget Alexander destroyed Persepolis as revenge for the destruction of Athens; I really doubt the Macedonians would have went through all that trouble if they did not seem themselves as Greeks. Fine if the Macedonians were not Greek, why would they not spread their own culture instead of the Hellenic culture? If I had a massive empire I would definitely not spread a foreign culture and language that's not my own....hence the Hellenistic Era. Furthermore, there maybe doubt on the ethnicity of the Macedonians but there is no doubt that they were NOT Slavic.

Also, there is nothing wrong with being Slavic, one of my favourite historic figures is the Princess Olga who destroyed her rival neighbours (who also killed her husband) and exerted Russian dominance in the region. But let us not forget she and her people had a love for Greek culture....NOT hate.

Perhaps Achilles has taken over Peter's role as "ranter of the week", but there is nothing special about leaving school in Year 12 with a knowledge of Ancient Greek. So did I, though I am not of Greek origin. And just because the ancient Macedonians used Greek as a 'lingua franca' with their southern neighbours, does not mean that they were ethnically Greeks. There is a strong analogy here with today's Zimbabwe, where English is used to communicate with the outside world, but that does not make Zimbabweans British or American.
I think a bit of logic is called for in all this, rather than rhetoric (good ancient Greek word that it is.) And by the way, what on earth is wrong with being a Slav ? To suggest so is rather a racist comment in today's world, not least as there are now more Slavs in the EU than there are Greeks.

Wa, Wa ,Wa, i'm a peasant Bulgarian Slav who thinks he's Macedonian,a descendant of the ancient Greek people of the kingdom of Makedon... wa, wa, wa, and i take ancient authors completely out of context as i am a peasant and have no education... wa, wa, wa.

You idiot Peter; have you really read Isocrates or Demosthenes? and really understood what what said? So Demosthenes calls Phillip a 'Barbarian' because of personal political rivalry; and because Demosthenes lived in a Demacracy, and Phillip lived in a Royal Kingdom - which Greeks of the classical age looked on as backward & an outdated political system of living under - in which their Homeric ancestors last lived under, and is "Barbaric", and that the only progressive way for a Greek of the age of the city-State to live under was in a Democracy. It has nothing to do in reference to nationality, but about the way of life Greeks in the classical thought was 'Greek' & civilised and what was a backward and 'Barbaric'.

In simply graduating from year 12 in high school in Greece, i can easily read those same ancient Greek texts - can you? and the language that the ancient Macedonian people spoke was Greek and they were Greek and which has been irrefutabely proven so by science & a very large corpus of Archeaological evidence - it's up to you to profer alternate proof that disproves their Greekness - for goodness sake,Alexander, Phillip, Kassander, and the whole Ancient royal house and aristocracy of Ancient Makedon considered themselves Greeks! and the most Greek of Greeks! this is what they thought and knew of themeseleves! not what a Bulgarian Slav peasant two thousand years later thinks of them!

Do you know what the sun-burst symbol of the ancient royal house of Makedon was called in Ancient Greek? it was called an 'Asteroessa'- it means 'the starry eyed one' in reference to the ancient Greek god Hellios, and was also the symbol of many other Greek states as well including Athens - if you look under the metopes and internal cella of the Parthen, the Asteroessa symbols are carves there as well - they were a pan-Hellenic symbol of Hellios and common to all Ancient Greeks and go way back to the homeric Greeks! you uneducated sod, did you know this? - i didn't think so; only what the communist politburo fed you and your parents.

Please! give me a break, everyone in the world but for a few bunch of screwed up jingoist peasants in the balkans believes in the fyrom-speak vision; it;s sad, but that's why the rest of Europe looks on at the peoples of the former Yugoslavia with empbarrasment at the squabling and lack of civility , education and respect, respect for History and the truth..

ALAS, THE STAKEHOLDERS ARE NOT ENOUGH
FANATICS ARE THE RESULT OF SEMI-KNOWLEDGE WHICH IS MUCH MORE DANGEREOUS THEN IGNORANCE.
WE CAN RECALL GOBELS'PROPAGANDA.
THANKS FOR PROMPT REPLY
Dr Cornelius van Helsing I THOROUGHLY
AGREE WITH YOU.

Well, once appealed to by The Ram, I cannot refuse in all conscience. Stasy and Peter (and those on the other side posessed of equally strong views) must all get back into their coffins and submit to a sprinkling of Holy Water after dark. If they find this process disturbing or uncomfortable, they must await the dawn arrival of the Stakeholders, who will drive a sharpened stake through all their hearts. Then at last perhaps we could get on with a sensible discussion at long last......

WE REALLY NEED A PETER CUSHING HERE
TO DEDEMOMISE SOME PERSONS AS STASY
AND PETER IN ORDER TO HELP THEM WITH
THEIR SEIZURES.
DR HESSLING CAN YOU HELP ?

Peter above,why would you use my name on Mar.19,2009 at 23:28pm? I must tell you,you came very close to my thought,bravo! Look it here you Greeks,What Isocrates and Demosthenes said it is the truth.Had anyone argued with you to the contrary your answer would have been in defence of the two.I said it before,you Greeks go with the wind,why is this? What does it mean to"Defend the holy soil"Does a Greek defends the holy soil from a Greek invasion? It is ironic,you people are so screwed up.You are saying that if you speak the language then you are what you speak.Well, from Polybius"Speakers of same language" with which the Greek fellow wanted to use as proof that bAncient Macedonians spoke the same language as the Ancient Greeks and thus, they must be classed as Greeks" Now,these same Greeks are burning the candle from the other end and want to argue the point but this time, since it suits rheir purpose, in the opposite direction: namely that "linguistic criteria are not only insufficient to denote ethnic naunces in the Balkans but they can be misleading. A lesson learned: You cannot burn the candle from both ends and expect not to get burned. To the original statement above,I could not have said it better myself;you fellows are true students of the art of manipulation. As a matter of fact, you have not only mastered the art og manipulating the text but have brought it to another level, the level of highest distinction. Like so many other things that you Greeks have invented this, the art of fabrication,is deservedly yours. You have won the argument hand down. Above statement was posted by Gandeto on the American Chronicle titled"Fabricators of Macedonian History"finaly, we agreed. Someone posted and said that Jane Sandanski was "Bulgarian" Here is what Sandanski said;" We dont want to replace the Ottoman Tyrani with the Bulgarian or any other,we are not Bulgarian,we are Macedonian".

Sorry to question both Achilles and Stasi (at least I'm being impartial !) but (a) Greek is not the oldest surviving spoken language in Europe - that honour is due to either Lithunian (Lietuveskai) or Welsh (Cymraeg) - and (b) what on earth is wrong with being a Slav in today's world ? This sounds like a bit of a racist comment. There are more Slavs in the EU now than there are Greeks, and nobody is yet complaining (I'd better not speak too soon !) Oh - and (c) would Peter please stop going on about "Mommy's skirts" Nobody else uses this analogy, and if he persists in doing it we might all wonder about what HE did under his mommy's skirts (shades of a sexual revelation there, Peter.)

Once a Slav, always a Slav; and in the case of Fyromians, Bulgarian Slavs at that - nothing to do with the Ancient Greek Kingdom of Makedon, its language, culture, race or religion.

Fyromians are a people without a long history,lineage or pedigree, who are simply attempting to steal the foreign and allien Greek culture of their Greek neighbours to create a sense of history, belonging,pride and respect and a position in the family of the older classical european nations - a fraudulent attempt that shows how pathetic and peasant-like are their attempts; it fools no one.

There is no such a language as "Macedonian",nor a race of people called "Macedonians"; Fyromians are Bulgarian Slavs who speak a Bulgarian language, which is part of the southern slavic centum language Group - whereas Greek is its own Language group, and is the most continuously spoken in Europe, and where the Ancient Greek dialect of Macedonian, along with Doric, Aeolic & ionian are are part of.

Shut up you freaks and go hide under your wives skirts why dont you ok? The Republic of Macedonia shall take back Aegean Macedonia and subdue you all, do you understand this??? The Macedonian race is the oldest in the world, your race startes in 1800's do you get this? The Macedonian language is older than all other languages. United Macedonia!

YOu may not like it but the ancient Macedonians have nothing to do with Skopjans

Oh come on Peter, do you think we can't tell you are fabricating another article? someone has psychological issues

Thanks for that Stasy, now why don't you write an article for the Oxford Journal or one of the other academic journals and see if it will be accepted? Because until then you're just another insignificant soul of who's post nobody read past the first line.

Nice try though, and we know you are Peter

Kastoria. Nice place. Long time ago my parents were born there. Greece, Elada, what ewer you want to name the country they are born. But still my parents are considered them self as MACEDONIANS and not Greeks. My self I'm born in Czech Republic and I'm MACEDONIAN too. You may not like it but Ancient Greeks had nothing in common with "modern Greece" so just to establish kind of Important position on the world political scene, you are using the worst methods of forging and faking the history facts and denying the truth by telling lies, because is well known that a lot of the people can claim right for their possession in Greece taken from them and those people are not Greeks - they are MACEDONIANS, born and lived for centuries on their own land. The question raises by it self: Why those people refuses to be part or identifying them self with the great GREEK history, or part of the Bulgarian one, where the Greek historians are trying to place MACEDONIAN population. But yet the MACEDONIANS, dispute everything are prevailing to keep our identity doesn't matter the political or economic situation and facing the truth power of the MACEDONIAN spirit every single person in the world can understand your envy. Because we The MACEDONIANS, we have power to persist FOREVER!
Accept that and stop bothering yourself with something what cannot be changed.

On the end we are all Human Kind…

David why are you speaking foolish things? you need to open your eyes wide, Macedonia does not any committees about history. Greece is wrong, and needs to be taught correct history do you understand this or do you need to hide under your momy's skirt? The Macedonian histroy is the only true history, greece has fake history do you get this?

Sounds as if a South African-style "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" might be a very good idea as regards Macedonia and Greece, along with the Joint Committee on Mutual History and Culture for Greece / Macedonia that has recently been proposed elsewhere. Personally, as befits my calling as a slayer of the Undead, I shall go and sharpen some more stakes whilst tending my garlic plantation.

Those same people murdered many in Macedonia during the Civil War, those people welcomed the Nazis thinking that they would hand over Macedonia over to them, those same people have put Alexander the Great above the God of Abraham, all in the name of Macedonia. They do not deserve to be called anything but for what they are: Bulgarians

They had a revolutionary movement whose aim was to free and create a free geographical Macedonia. Their forefathers planned, and fought, to free that land. They died trying to free Macedonia from Ottoman rule. 'Macedonia' may be a Greek word but aren't they entitled to use it? If you give your life for a cause, haven't you given everything?

They had a revolutionary movement whose aim was to free and create a free geographical Macedonia. Their forefathers planned, and fought, to free that land. They died trying to free Macedonia from Ottoman rule. 'Macedonia' may be a Greek word but aren't they entitled to use it? If you give your life for a cause, haven't you given everything?

Apart from my own role as "stakeholder" in some of these exchanges (preferably with a sharpened stake and a crucifix), I cannot but observe that both sides have seriously got their history wrong, and that the suggestion elsewhere of a Joint Committee on Mutual History between Macedonia and Greece might be a Very Good Idea.

Kakosi Tombro - is that how you say greeting in your language?, or Serbian? or Croatian? or Bulgarian?, just other names ansd labels for the same Southern centum Slav Language Group.

Let's compare this to what a Greek citizen of ancient Macedonia would have said to you: "O XAIRE FILTATE" , "GREETINGS FRIEND".

A bit different aren't they Pietrov.. ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...

really your people's dellusional rantings and attacks against us are not only pathetic, but are not taken seriously by Greeks at all - but keep that up and Fyrom will never ever get into the EU, Greeks have always chosen to eat bread and olives than bow down to any barbarian - thats what your people have to understand to come to their senses, they will never win, and keep pushing and you only cause emnity and war and awaken the beast of the warrior within every Greek.

But as to being upset??, never :) i just love poking Socratically at intellectually challenged, Balkan peasants - as we did when we were boys poking a stick at a slug, or a worm, just to see its reaction.

""The entire nationalism hysteria, which only few question as most media get huge sums of money through government advertising, serves not only as a distraction from serious problems ... but has created an atmosphere that makes compromise difficult. It reminds me a bit of the madness of Serbia in the '90s, though not on the same scale, when Serbs spoke of themselves as 'the heavenly people,' " says Ana Petruseva, managing editor of Balkan Insight, in Skopje."

"Even "God" has gotten involved. A nine-minute TV ad starts with a petition from Macedonia to the heavens: "Our neighbors distributed thousands of books across the world, containing false history and portraying a wrong picture about Macedonia. ... Only you know our pain." The Almighty then responds: "From you, Macedonians, descendants of Macedon, I conceived the white race. All that stretches to the seas off Japan is conceived from your genes."

"Stefoska, a Byzantine scholar at the Institute of National History here. "Who knows? It is a new reading of history completely different from the previous, not done from an academic point of view, but from a purely political view."

Alexander is considered one of the greatest military leaders of all time. Born in the Greek city of Pella in 356 BC, his conquests extended to most of his known world by the time of his death at age 32. He opened up Greek civilization from the Mediterranean to India, and is regarded as the first to link Europe, Asia, and Africa.

"Alexander was the captain general of all the Hellenes. He spoke Greek. He went to war on behalf of the Hellenes. No one in the ancient, medieval, or modern world has disputed this," says Michael Wood, a historian and British filmmaker who has produced a work on Alexander and has another in the making.

"The Macedonian state claim has no basis in history; it is a state-sponsored myth. I tell my Macedonian and Greek friends to ignore it," Mr. Wood adds. "

"A chief fear here is a scenario of partition – of north Kosovo Serbs in the Mitrovica area joining Serbia proper, which could push Macedonian and Kosovar Albanians into a union, breaking up Macedonia.

So far, ethnic Albanians here have been patient over the Macedonia-Greece dispute. Albanian parties are in the ruling coalition. Yet the patience may not be unlimited, senior diplomats say. "

You choose Peter Janovski, EU/NATO or Greater Albania

Accept the fact that you are a Slav; a Bulgarian Slav, and embrace your Bulgarian heritage and yearn to be united with mother Bulgaria: really, that's where fyrom belongs, to be anexed to Bulgaria. There is no such a race as "Macedonians", nor a Language called "Macedonian" - both are a fiction.

In regaards to to your politburo fed communist era brain-washed irredentist rantings in regards to Greeks being Vlachs, Albanians or Turks, you really do not know your history that welldo you!

Firstly, The Albians are of Illirian ancetry, who were very akin and related to the Dorian Greeks; secondly,most of the historical Albania was populated by either Epirote Greeks, or southern Greek colonies.

The the albainians that did come into Greece were from this stock.

The Vlachs are not a non-reek people as popularly believed by outsiders, but a Greek people who are bilingual and who also speak a Latin dialect(of which they also exist in Fyrom).

Thirdly, the Turks being Muslims; admixture between the Greeks & Muslim Turks was not common at all actually:any Greek woman who was forcefully abducted into any Harem,and any offspring of that union where subsequently brough up as Muslim Turks, and becaome part of the then Turkish minority in Greek, which was subsquently expelled from Greece to Turkey when Greece defeated Turkey and won her freedom at the beggining of the nineteenth Century.

There are large swathes of modern day Greece were the population is relatively homogenous and continious with the Ancient Greek population; Epirus (my home), Makedonia,Thessaly,Aetolia-carnania, Arcadia,Acheae, Mani, Crete, the Greek islands,etc,etc.

So your tactic of making a counter-attack against the Greeks in questioning their ethnicity fails, and does not take away from the core facts that Fyromians are Bulgarian-Slavs, who speak Slav and who have no relationship to the Ancient Greek peoples of Ancient Macedonia.

Finally, in regards to your nameing our Beautiful Greek city of thessaliniki as "SOLUN", that is the most disgusting vomit-wrenching thing that i have heard.

Kings Kassandros named the city after the half-sister of Alexender the Great - Thessaloniki, who was named by Phillip after his Thassalian wife, Thessala, and whose subsequent daughter was named in honour of his victory his Thessalian neighbours and where the name means 'victory over the Thessalians', after the root words 'thessala' & 'Nike' which means victory - it also is a double pun on his Thessalian wife Thessala.

Let me reiterate again, the word "SOLUN" is the Bulgarian name for the city when the Bulgarians(& of which you are a descendant of) temporarily invaded Greece, and which is a derivative of the authentic and actual Greek name of the city, Thessaloniki- and the origins being - Thes(salon)iki - therefore linguistically "Salon"became "Solun".

Dream on pietrov ( is that the Bulgarian pronunciation of your name?) The Province of Makedon will allways be a part of Greece, in fact so should Paeonia (current day FYROM), and one day Paeonia will also be taken and become a part of Greece again and Fyromians can either then choose to be Greek, or choose to live in the mother homeland, Bulgaria.

Moon Labe- come and take it, the Greek people will rise up and defeat their enemies and push back the Barbarians once more...

To all of you Greeks,I could not care what you are saying,fabricating,falsifying or what have you believe in.My main satisfaction is that you Greeks are so upset with me,it makes me laugh with you.Did you read the joke?

Hey Peter,

"Keep reading Your Slavic Propaganda" Whilst your Country goes, "UNDER"

Comment of Fri, Mar 20 2009 at I did not writte it is by an imposter.21:23
you my friend are stupid person.Macedonia was divided by the Big Powers in 1913.The Republic of Macedonia was under Serbian rule for 31 years untill 1944 at which point the Socialist Republic of Macedonia was recognized for its fight againts the Nazis.Before than Macedonia was ruled by Serbia,same as Greece rules Aegean Macedonia since 1913.The Aegean Macedonians fought the Nazis and Italians along side the Greeks.but Greece has renaged on the rights for the Macedonians,same as Bulgaria since Dimitrov died.The Macedonians in Yugoslavia earned their freedom.The bulk of the fighters in Greece againts the Nazis and Italians were the Macedonians,unlike Queen Frederika wering the Swastica in Athens,this is no bull my friend!The grandfather of the Macedonian PM Gruevski gave his life in that war defending Greece,dint you forget it.Boris, you claimed to me once that you are a historian,and I said to you:It is too bad for your students who you teach fabricated history.They realy are learning nothing from you,but falsified history.It is ironic,to have people like you teaching a subject you dont know. YOu greeks are stupid and need to accept that Macedonia and Solun shall be reunited. So stop hiding under your wives skirts

Comment of Mar.19 at 23:28 I did not writte it is by an imposter.To me all it is importent that I know who I am,and that is I am Macedonian, sefenetly not a Greek.Secondly,there are no pure so-called Greeks,you are Alvanoturki for sure.Look, face up to the truth,no ancient connection ,the only true connection is:Albanians and I dont mean in a bad way 40% it is a fact,Vlahs,Pontious who in reality are Turks but Christians,Vlahs,Roma, Slavs and a whole host of other nationalities emmigree.Stop the malakia and face the truth.No State in this small world is pure,and defenetly Greece is not! Neither is Macedonia or any Balkan State. Ok! lets spice up our never ending dissagreements.To do that here is a joke. An old man goes into a drug store to by some Viagra.Can I have 6 tablets,cut in quarters? I can cut them for you said Dan the pharmacist,but a quarter tablet will not give you a full erection. I am 96 said the old man. I dont want an erection. I just want it sticking out far enough so I dont piss on my slippers. Hope you dont find it offensive.

Peter:

Stop twisting politically loaded statements from Demosthenes as history. Why don't you look at all the evidence including how the kings of Ancient Macedonia felt about themselves - 100% GREEK!

Please explain the following 3 quotes from Alexander the I, the II and the III (the Great).

Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45, translated by G.Rawlinson]

'Men of Athens… Had I not greatly AT HEART the COMMON welfare of GREECE I should not have come to tell you; but I AM MYSELF GREEK by descent, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery. …If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the GREEK CAUSE, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am ALEXANDER of MACEDON.‘

ALEXANDER TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF AND MACEDONIANS
BEING GREEK AND FIGHTING FOR GREECE:
Arrian (The Campaigns of Alexander) Alexander talking to the troops before the battle. Book 2-7 Penguin Classics. Page 112. Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.

'There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for pay— and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for GREECE, and our hearts will be in it. As for our FOREIGN troops —Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,Agrianes— they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of
Asia.'

Alexander III (the Great)
In his letter to the king of the Persians:
Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)

Quote:
'Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though WE had done them no prior injury […] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks[…]'

Unbelievable... the only facts are that the occupants of FYROM are Bulgarian-Slavs, and have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonia,its people or language.

Firstly, the Ancient Macedonians considered themselves to be Greek,as were their language,religion and culture.

Scientific & Historical & Archeaological evidence also proves this undisputably, and the majority of the academic world also attests to the Greekness of Ancient Macedonia.

Every educated person knows this except the Bulgarians of FYROM! and DNA PROOF! really, that has been discredited long ago and is laughable.

The arguments the Fyromian slavs make are pathetic,weak and laughable.. the jingoistic,irredentist and propagansist rantings of the insecure and uneducated.

Fancy naming the city Thessaloniki "SOLUN", which was the Bulgarian name for the city when it was temporarily surrounded by the invading Slav hordes of the Bulgarian King Samuel.

The real issue here is that the Bulgarian descendants of the Bulgarian king Samuel and his Slav people- the current day population of FYROM - are sore that they were successfully defeated and repelled from establishing a homeland in Greece by the Byzantine Emperor, 'Basil the Bulgar-slayer', as he has come to be know in history, and that is the real issue here, a homeless Slav-Bulgarian people with no roots or history desperately trying to find itself, and doing so by pathetically stealing the foreign history of a foreign people - the Ancient Greek culture of the Ancient Greek kingdom of Makedon.

Makedon will allways be Greek,as it has always been, and no amount of desperate propaganda will change that; and in relation to the people of FYROM, there is no such a race as "Macedonians", nor a "Macedonian" language - the people of FYROM are composed of Albians and Slavs, whose language is Albania and Slav-Bulgarian.

Unbelievable... the only facts are that the occupants of FYROM are Bulgarian-Slavs, and have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonia,its people or language.

Firstly, the Ancient Macedonians considered themselves to be Greek,as were their language,religion and culture.

Scientific & Historical & Archeaological evidence also proves this undisputably, and the majority of the academic world also attests to the Greekness of Ancient Macedonia.

Every educated person knows this except the Bulgarians of FYROM! and DNA PROOF! really, that has been discredited long ago and is laughable.

The arguments the Fyromian slavs make are pathetic,weak and laughable.. the jingoistic,irredentist and propagansist rantings of the insecure and uneducated.

Fancy naming the city Thessaloniki "SOLUN", which was the Bulgarian name for the city when it was temporarily surrounded by the invading Slav hordes of the Bulgarian King Samuel.

The real issue here is that the Bulgarian descendants of the Bulgarian king Samuel and his Slav people- the current day population of FYROM - are sore that they were successfully defeated and repelled from establishing a homeland in Greece by the Byzantine Emperor, 'Basil the Bulgar-slayer', as he has come to be know in history, and that is the real issue here, a homeless Slav-Bulgarian people with no roots or history desperately trying to find itself, and doing so by pathetically stealing the foreign history of a foreign people - the Ancient Greek culture of the Ancient Greek kingdom of Makedon.

Makedon will allways be Greek,as it has always been, and no amount of desperate propaganda will change that; and in relation to the people of FYROM, there is no such a race as "Macedonians", nor a "Macedonian" language - the people of FYROM are composed of Albians and Slavs, whose language is Albania and Slav-Bulgarian.

Comment using Peter on Fri, Mar 20 2009 05:04is the same asshole who usualy uses my name.Why dont you come out from under your momys skirt?
When you are saying the word Macedonia is Greek,you totally are mistaken,and here is why; Ancient Macedonians pre-existed the Hellens by centuries.How can the word Macedonia be Greek? Further, the only tie that the Ancient Macedonians had with the Ancient Hellens was the conquest of the Macedonians over the City States.This did not make the City States as being Macedonian.Simply, they were conquered by the Macedonians. Professor Miller is right by saying;”Let it be said once more, the region of ancient Paionia was a part of Macedonian Empire. So were Ephesos and Tyre and Palestine and Memphis and Babylon and Taxila and dozens more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily,but none was ever “Macedonian”. Do you agtee with his assesment? I do. How than the Macedonians today under the Greek occupation are Greek? The Ancient Macedonians in Pakistan claim they are Macedonians,and deny they are Greek? Why is this you think Tom?The whole argument this professor is making is pro-Greek not because it is true what he writtes but he is on the Greek Lobbying payrol. The history teaches us and as per the great orator Demosthenes,the Ancient Macedonians were not Hellens.The battle of Chaeroniea in 337 BC was between the Hellens and Macedonians.If you dispute this,than why Demosthenes composed the epitaph for the fallen Hellens as folows;”Time whose oerseeng eye record all human action, Bear word to mankind what fate was suffered, how stiving to safeguard the holy soil of Hellas.Upon Boeotias plain we died. The distinction between Greeks and Macedonians is explicit;”how striving to safeguard the holy soil of Hellas we-died. Ancient Macedonians were not Greek,they did not consider themselfs to be Greeks,nore were they so considered by the Ancient Greeks. On the point of DNA I am sure the people who did make the tests are scientists and I do respect their findings.But if you take professor Miller he is under the payrol of the Greek Lobbying group.In other words, he is not reliable once on someones payrol. Furthere to the difference between Greeks and Macedonians,on Sept.3,1903 the Prime Minister of Greece Mr.Ralis boasted to the New York Times how Greece was supporting the Turks to eliminate the Macedonian revolutionaries,and that Greece is working close with the Turks.He even states,we are working with the Greek CONSUL in Macedonia to spy on the Macedonians.Tell me Tom,if Macedonia is Greek,why was he using language like this?Did Greece spied on Greeks?In 1925 at the League of Nations the Greek high ranking official told the Serbs and Bulgars the folowing “The Macedonian language is neither Serbian nor Bulgarian,but an independent language.He even recognized the Macedonian identity as separate from the others.Athena Skoulariki a professor of sociology at the University of Crete said;The people of Macedonia have the right to name themselfs Macedonian,in the 19th and 20th century there was a wider geogaphical area called Macedonia,before Greece existed. Valianatos was fired by Papandreu fo saying to recognize Macedonia and the Macedonian minority in Greece. In 1995,Mitsotakis was afraid to recognize the Macedonian minority because would have had complicated Greeces pretentions of being only pure Greek with a muslum minority.For him the name Republic of Macedonia was no problem,but the minority was too heavy for him.Why was that Tom? Well, I could give you a lot more examples,but I dont want to make you bored. Tom,I do agree with you on some points,I agree with professor Miller on some points,but does not make it all true what you or the professor are saying.One time my neighbor asked me to say “I am Greek”. I than asked him to say he is a Turk.He responded by saying”Tha su doso mia bunia”To me it was equal the question.Once we got through this we became good friends to respect our values with each other.This person is from Sparta (Logastra).When you show respect for me as to who am I,I will respect your wishes as to who you are. It is called mutual respect.I am Macedonian by ethnicity.I cannot change that even if I have a gun on my head.It was the same for (Papadiakos) was it not?(Grekos genithica,Grecos tha pethano)That is from the history I have learned long time ago.
Accept the fact that United and Great Macedonia is coming and we shall reclaim Aegean and Pirin Macedonia once and for all!

Comment using Peter on Fri, Mar 20 2009 05:04is the same asshole who usualy uses my name.Why dont you come out from under your momys skirt?
When you are saying the word Macedonia is Greek,you totally are mistaken,and here is why; Ancient Macedonians pre-existed the Hellens by centuries.How can the word Macedonia be Greek? Further, the only tie that the Ancient Macedonians had with the Ancient Hellens was the conquest of the Macedonians over the City States.This did not make the City States as being Macedonian.Simply, they were conquered by the Macedonians. Professor Miller is right by saying;”Let it be said once more, the region of ancient Paionia was a part of Macedonian Empire. So were Ephesos and Tyre and Palestine and Memphis and Babylon and Taxila and dozens more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily,but none was ever “Macedonian”. Do you agtee with his assesment? I do. How than the Macedonians today under the Greek occupation are Greek? The Ancient Macedonians in Pakistan claim they are Macedonians,and deny they are Greek? Why is this you think Tom?The whole argument this professor is making is pro-Greek not because it is true what he writtes but he is on the Greek Lobbying payrol. The history teaches us and as per the great orator Demosthenes,the Ancient Macedonians were not Hellens.The battle of Chaeroniea in 337 BC was between the Hellens and Macedonians.If you dispute this,than why Demosthenes composed the epitaph for the fallen Hellens as folows;”Time whose oerseeng eye record all human action, Bear word to mankind what fate was suffered, how stiving to safeguard the holy soil of Hellas.Upon Boeotias plain we died. The distinction between Greeks and Macedonians is explicit;”how striving to safeguard the holy soil of Hellas we-died. Ancient Macedonians were not Greek,they did not consider themselfs to be Greeks,nore were they so considered by the Ancient Greeks. On the point of DNA I am sure the people who did make the tests are scientists and I do respect their findings.But if you take professor Miller he is under the payrol of the Greek Lobbying group.In other words, he is not reliable once on someones payrol. Furthere to the difference between Greeks and Macedonians,on Sept.3,1903 the Prime Minister of Greece Mr.Ralis boasted to the New York Times how Greece was supporting the Turks to eliminate the Macedonian revolutionaries,and that Greece is working close with the Turks.He even states,we are working with the Greek CONSUL in Macedonia to spy on the Macedonians.Tell me Tom,if Macedonia is Greek,why was he using language like this?Did Greece spied on Greeks?In 1925 at the League of Nations the Greek high ranking official told the Serbs and Bulgars the folowing “The Macedonian language is neither Serbian nor Bulgarian,but an independent language.He even recognized the Macedonian identity as separate from the others.Athena Skoulariki a professor of sociology at the University of Crete said;The people of Macedonia have the right to name themselfs Macedonian,in the 19th and 20th century there was a wider geogaphical area called Macedonia,before Greece existed. Valianatos was fired by Papandreu fo saying to recognize Macedonia and the Macedonian minority in Greece. In 1995,Mitsotakis was afraid to recognize the Macedonian minority because would have had complicated Greeces pretentions of being only pure Greek with a muslum minority.For him the name Republic of Macedonia was no problem,but the minority was too heavy for him.Why was that Tom? Well, I could give you a lot more examples,but I dont want to make you bored. Tom,I do agree with you on some points,I agree with professor Miller on some points,but does not make it all true what you or the professor are saying.One time my neighbor asked me to say “I am Greek”. I than asked him to say he is a Turk.He responded by saying”Tha su doso mia bunia”To me it was equal the question.Once we got through this we became good friends to respect our values with each other.This person is from Sparta (Logastra).When you show respect for me as to who am I,I will respect your wishes as to who you are. It is called mutual respect.I am Macedonian by ethnicity.I cannot change that even if I have a gun on my head.It was the same for (Papadiakos) was it not?(Grekos genithica,Grecos tha pethano)That is from the history I have learned long time ago.
Accept the fact that United and Great Macedonia is coming and we shall reclaim Aegean and Pirin Macedonia once and for all!

Comment using Peter on Mar.19, at 23:28 is the same asshole who usualy uses my name.Why dont you come out from under your momys skirt? Milososki proposed to do a joint research of the Balkan history,quess what,Greece backed off as usual.Greece knows the history Greece is claiming is not Greek at all.The proposal Milososki is putting forth will put the historical arguments between Greece and Macedonia as well with Bulgaria to rest once for all.Greece, what are you afraid of?

you a wannabe Maci dumbass, well be waiting for your brokeass poor excuse of a contry to come take what u think is yours. lol, nice try

HELLO THERE ,IS THAT THE ONLY ARGUMENT YOU CAN PROVIDE , WATCH THE ALBANIANS THEY ARE NEXT TO
YOU .

so why dont you come and get it you softcocks

First of all you in person is distorting history or ignoring it is you and a bunch of fanatics
YOU ARE BULGARIANS WHTHER YOU LIKE OR NO.You are are gift of disraeli
fear and CURCHILL'S GIFT TO TITO
IN ORDER TO DISALLY HIM FROM STALIN.

You greeks need to stop distorting history and stop hiding under your wives skirt. The Republic of Macedonia has no choice now but to take back Aegean Macedonia and restore peace and order from the chaos of the greek occupancy. Solun shall once again prosper and the Macedonia language will prevail above all others.