I think before everybody gets too excited, we should remember that the Greek language was the "lingua franca" of the eastern Mediterranean in New Testament times, but that not everybody who spoke it was an ethnic Greek individual. (St Paul is a good example - a fluent Greek speaker, he was nonetheless a Jew, and proud of it, as he reminds us in the Epistles !) It's a bit like the use of English in the Far East as a "lingua franca" between people of different nationalities, none of whom is British, American, or Australian by ethnic origin.

p.s. peter: before you get too excited about so many people speaking a slavic language and stating that greece wasn't the first country to become christian...the new testament was writen in greek. the only man that has the grace to receive the holy fire in jeruselum each year is greek, not a pope from the vatican nor any slavic russian armenian patriarch.

have any of you ever read any world history books? there is one person claiming that the albanians were first on the balkans before the greeks???!!! hmm, if that were so, did they build the parthenon? did they fight the persians at thermopile? i'm just curious where your info comes from. also, do you know what the words macedonia or philippos mean? they are greek words. when the kings of macedonia speak, write, worship in greek, how can people claim that greece took the province. it was just another city-state like athens and sparta. something like in the u.s. people that live in new york have differences as those living in texas, but they are both in the united states.

Dejane dejane srubko dolno,nevejo.pleme ! samo zdrav umruk shte vi opravi vashta maika!

Kogato faktite govorjat i bogovete mulchat !
80%(macedonians) speek Bulgarian ! and have bulgarian names ! with love to all Macedonians!
bjahme razdeleni ot Turci i Surbi ! to all surbs + Dejan! Bulgarians have log history !From nort Himalaja mauntins to norten italy .

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To Pella
Did you read the book or document?
please what is its Title? and where can you buy it or read it.
That question was asked about a week ago still i have no answer
"ante ke tha vyxtosome" a greek
expression saying "come on hurry
up i am waiting"

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Pelia - Aries is quite right: can you please give us publication details of the book concerned (even a title would help !)

Not so sure you're right about Macedonia being the only country in the world to have done a bit of "identity theft". In Africa they're all doing it, while in Europe the Lithuanians would certainly disagree with you. (Some say that Lithuanian is actually Europe's oldest living language, but the Lithuanians certainly accuse the Russians of "identity theft" round Kaliningrad/Karalaucius (Lithuanian name for same place), and the Prussians for stealing their old name. And a few more.

So I am afraid the "disease" is a bit more widespread in Europe than you seem to think. (And I haven't even mentioned the Germans and Poles about Danzig/Gdansk, or the constant Belgian quarrels about Brussel/Bruxelles, or the Basques/Euskadi.)

Dear girl, I do think you need to read up on current European affairs a bit more widely. There is a Europe outside Greece, you know.

Authentication code: Wrzeszcz

To Pella
Did you read the book or document?
please what is its Title? and where can you buy it or read it.

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LMAO, They take such grandeur in their naming skills. I wonder what they will steal next. Wait, they already started moving on stealing identity, history and culture. By the time 2020 comes around the WMC will be the name of some hip-hop group.

Dr Cornelius
The Larnax is one and tavels occasionaly from Vergina to Thessaloniki.

Aries - many thanks for all this background. Agreed entirely, except for one small factual query. The 'larnax' found in Vergina in 1977 is displayed in the museum there (Vergina) as you rightly say. But there is another one apparently on display in the Archaelogical Museum in Thessaloniki - are they one and the same (i.e. Thessaloniki borrowed the Vergina one), or are there two ?

By the way, the reference to "flag of (in)convenience" was just my little joke, and there was no serious substance behind it.

A flag of convenience is decribed by International maritime law to
state the difference of port and the owner of a vessel
this may be called a tax evasive
"conveniencew".

The Vergina Sun or Star of Vergina is a symbol of a stylised star with sixteen rays. It was found in archaeological excavations in Vergina, in Macedonia, northern Greece, where it was discovered on a golden larnax found by Professor Manolis Andronikos in 1977 in the tombs of the kings of the ancient kingdom of Macedon.

Andronikos described the symbol variously as a "star", a "starburst" or as a "sunburst".[1] He proposed that the larnax on which it appears belonged to King Philip II of Macedon, the father of Alexander the Great, though other historians have suggested that the tomb actually belonged to the later King Philip III Arrhidaeus.[2] The larnax is on display at the archaeological museum in Vergina, very close to where it was found. Another version of the Vergina Sun, with 12 rays, was found on the larnax of Olympias.

The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.

During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world:

China - wan
England - fylfot
Germany - Hakenkreuz
Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
India - swastika
the word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

Hitler and the Nazis

In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man.
For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.

Tim - thanks; precisely my point. It would not be possible these days anywhere in the world to put on an "ancient Indian" festival featuring Sanskrit etc with the swastika as an innocuous emblem of harmony (as indeed it was once), given the notoriety that this symbol achieved under the Nazis. (Also, in Germany, it's actually illegal, though it would be nice to try the "Indian" argument !)

The same applies, I fear, to the Macedonian red/yellow star, whether Vergina or the later 8-point version. It is just too close to the "Rising Sun" still hated in some quarters of the Far East, Australia, and even parts of Europe. (My own uncle was a prisoner of the Japanese in Singapore during WW II - he survived but never fully recovered.)

The Greek version of Vergina - same "star" motif but on a blue background - would not excite the same hostile reaction. However, it is extremely close to both the UN and the NATO blue/gold flag and also one of the "peacekeeping" flags in Bosnia! Fortunately Greece has registered this flag with the World Trade Convention as a Trade Mark (very wisely !) so there should be no problem in practice.

There is an international maritime definition of a "Flag of Convenience". Here we seem to be talking about a "Flag of Inconvenience" !

just another history lesson but the nazi symbol has been around for thousands of years in india, the germans glorified it as we know for the wrong reasons.

Dr Cornelius
Did to Melnik's wine it was the the most appreciated by Winston Churchill
From circa 400 ad and the slavs 600 ad the area was part the Eastern Roman Empire that is
Byzantium the western part of it
it never was no man's land
Slavs were accorded privileges
by many Byzantine Emperors(for political reasons even mariages
ocurred betweem the two).

Actually the successors of Ancient Macedonia are the ethnic Albanians. They have been in the region longer than the Slavs

I agree with Simon, if we go by Cornelius logic then the successor state should be the one that occupies the majority of Macedonia which is Greece. This is probably why many Skopjans desire to take over the Greek portion of Macedonia because only then will they have a valid reason to be the "successor state of ancient Macedonia"

That would only make sense to me if FYROM occupied the majority of Macedonia. Over half of it belongs to Greece, and the population of the Greek portion outnumbers that of FYROM. Therefore geographical evidence hardly supports FYROM's claim. Is there any other evidence?

to Simon - if you are right (as you may be) that the native Macedonians only disappeared from the rise of Imperial Rome and its subsequent colonisation, the converse of this is that, with the decline of Imperial Rome in 400 AD or so, the Slavs invaded and then took over. So in modern terms, present day Macedonia is the "successor state" to ancient Macedonia before the Romans took it over.

Not everybody will agree with this analysis, but by international law it is more or less correct.

I always thought that the Macedonians disappeared after the rise of Imperial Rome. Can anyone explain the validity of FYROM's claim to ancient Macedonian history?

to Medaur - I (genuinely) was an EU wine advisor to the Bulgarian government back in 2005/6, notably on vineyard registers/ cadastres viticoles. To say that I was impressed by the quality of Bulgarian wine would be an understatement. "King Simeon's Reserve" in particular (not available in the UK) was spectacular.

There are certain Ancient Greek vine varieties / cepages still grown, though I do not recall the precise names. These are normally blended in (small quantities) during vinification with main-line varieties such as Cabernet Sauvignon and Shiraz. One of them - I recall the name - is Mavrotheftiko (also used in Cyprus). So in oenology (wine-making) and viticulture (grape-growing) there is a direct line back to Ancient Greece.

This is probably true in Greece itself too, but the "audit trail" is easier to establish in Bulgaria.

Hope this is helpful

to Medaur - I (genuinely) was an EU wine advisor to the Bulgarian government back in 2005/6, notably on vineyard registers/ cadastres viticoles. To say that I was impressed by the quality of Bulgarian wine would be an understatement. "King Simeon's Reserve" in particular (not available in the UK) was spectacular.

There are certain Ancient Greek vine varieties / cepages still grown, though I do not recall the precise names. These are normally blended in (small quantities) during vinification with main-line varieties such as Cabernet Sauvignon and Shiraz. One of them - I recall the name - is Mavrotheftiko (also used in Cyprus). So in oenology (wine-making) and viticulture (grape-growing) there is a direct line back to Ancient Greece.

This is probably true in Greece itself too, but the "audit trail" is easier to establish in Bulgaria.

Hope this is helpful

Can anyone recommend or say anything about ancient greek wine in today Bulgaria?

Dukagjini - Thanks anyway. I have a feeling that Habib gave you more of the answer that you might have been looking for, but which I could not provide.

Dr.Cornelius,thank you for your time to answer my question,thought it was not the subject i asked for...!I understand if you don't want to take public stand on that matter , for what ever reason.Anyway , thank you very much Dr.

to Dukagjini -
You asked how I would describe the Macedonian political stand towards Albanians in Kosovo, Albania, and Macedonia itself. The short answer is: "very cautiously" !

Factually, Albanians dominate in 16 out of Macedonia's 84 municipalities, Tetovo having the highest concentration, being mainly concentrated in the north-west. The unrest of the late 1990s was "settled" by the Ohrid Framework Agreement of August 2001. Demographically, the Albanians have a higher birth-rate, and their proportion of the Macedonian population has risen from 13% in 1961 to 25% now as a result. Culturally, the Macedonian Albanians are more conservative than their Kosovo brethren; apparently Tetovo resembles a town in eastern Turkey more than Europe (women cannot receive higher education and must wear veils in public, for example), and the blood-feud Kanun of Lek still prevails.

This is "backwards progress" from the relatively enlightened and egalitarian society of Tito's Jugoslavia, though closer to the more primitive society still prevailing in Albania proper, and possibly amongst the Albanian community in the mountains of north-western Greece.

I have tried to restrict myself to objective material in the public domain, and hope this is helpful.

The Macedonian government seeks to subdue the Albanian minority since they view Albanians as an obstacle to a United Macedonia. They also know well that if it is anyone who will force them to change their name then it will be the Albanians as the Albanians are only interested in joining the EU and Nato. Furthermore, Albanians are the oldest population in the Vadar region predating the Slavs and on more than one occasion have fought to separate as the Republic of Illyria. Skopje really needs to make friends of their neighbours instead of enemies

Dr.Cornelius,how do you describe the Macedonian political stand toward Albanians within Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo?Just curios,Thank You

Aries - on second thoughts, maybe the fact that the Rising Sun was not trade-marked under the Paris Convention by the Japanese in 1889 was precisely because it was a "national symbol" in their eyes. It certainly became extremely well known as such throughout the Far East by 1945 ! In terms of present-day acceptability of course, it ranks with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which some say it provoked, and its resemblance to the Star (or Sun) of Vergina is very unfortunate. But as Costas Karamanlis said, "you can't change history".

Aries - thanks for correcting my typo about Prof. Andronikos.

I can understand your reluctance to use WTO international trade mark or 'intellectual property' rules to patent a national symbol, but when Greece did this in 1995 it was actually a very astute move. It forced Macedonia to give way much more quickly (i.e. within 2 years) than would otherwise have happened. (The WTO and its associated bodies have rather more international authority than the public often realises.)

As for 'budallas', thanks for the explanation. Slightly disappointing - I had hoped that Andy the Greek was invoking an ancient Tibetan curse (another mountain people with long memories !)

Dr Cornelius
Allow, a correction it's Manolis Andronikos and not Andranikos
Budallas in Greek means Dumb stupid,imbecile,endormis.
I personally dislike the idea of having to rgister a National symbol
as if it was patenting a commdity
my friend there is a limit to everything. tu ne crois pas.

to Andy the Greek - ah, now I understand / katalavano. Budala is a Tibetan praise-word, as in:

"Budala Palace is the symbol of Tibet. It has a total area of 130,000 square meters, and is the grandest palace of all above 3700 meters altitude. At night, it looks stunning."

Efkharisto poli. I must congratulate you upon your scholarship - my Tibetan knowledge is not up to yours.

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to Alexi - I think I know my history sufficiently well. The Star of Vergina lapsed from living memory some time in the Dark Ages, and was re-discovered as a golden 16-pointed "larnax" depicting the Rising Sun by Professor Andrakonis in what is now Greek Macedonia, in 1977. It now resides as a star exhibit (pardon the pun !) in the Archaeology Museum in Salonika (Thessaloniki to some, Solun to others, Salonika to me and the Germans.)

Greece used the 16-point motif on a blue background and (very wisely) got recognition for this in 1995 as an international trademark under the 1883 Paris Convention, now administered by the World Trade Organisation (WTO). Meanwhile, Macedonia had used since 1992 the same 16-point motif on a red background as its national flag, and under WTO rules had to give way, which it did with a bad grace, and replaced the 16-point motif with an 8-point star based on a similar artefact found in Trnovec, Macedonian Macedonia, in 1995, by an archaeological team. Colours remaining red and yellow as before.

UNFORTUNATELY, the same design (in both 16 and 8 pointed star forms was invented by the Imperial Japanese Navy in 1889, and subsequently used by all Japanese forces during World War II, including labour camps and death-marches. Perhaps fortunately, the Japanese government of 1889 did not register their emblem under the Paris Convention, otherwise Greece would have been unsuccessful in 1995 (registrations have no expiry date). The Japanese colours for what they call the Rising Sun star are red and yellow or white. A trade marke expert would almost certainly conclude that the Japanese emblem and the Star of Vergina - whether Greek or Macedonian - are one and the same.

Perhaps not suprisingly, the Rising Sun was forbidden from use in the US, Far East and Australasia for many years after 1945, and its use even now in Chinese Carnivals is thought to be an instrument of very bad luck, usually directed at a particular recipient. So as an international marketing tool it is a "no-brainer".

Do NOT ever use it as a Christmas Card, even to Peter. The symbol is thought by the Chinese and some other nationalities to bring bad luck.

I hope this is the most thorough and objective explanation that I can give from what is known at present. All positive contributions to knowledge (as opposed to invective and abuse) gratefully received.

Cornelius, the Star of Vergina has been the official symbol of the Republic of Macedonia since 500 BCE, learn your history!

with respect to Dan, that's a pretty crappy and over-simplified map. I can send you a much better one (which fully documents its sources, unlike yours), once I can work out how the URLs work ! Aries may have a copy of one of the maps I have, which points to a rather different conclusion from the one that you have drawn.

to Elizabeth - the Star of Vergina was actually registered in 1995 as Greek intellectual property under the Paris Convention of 1883 (as now incorporated into the WTO), and so is nothing to do with the EU at all. (The EU does not always recognise WTO rules, but in the case of the Paris convention it normally does. To see how it doesn't, look up the EU protected designation of origin "sherry" in the WTO directory !)

To my knowledge, as a former EU delegate, there is no EU structure or regime yet in place for assigning "designation of origin" to provincial flags of member-states. If there were, the main problem would be the Basques, and also other separatist movements throughout the EU, which explains why some but not all EU member-states have opposed the recognition of Kosovo/Kosova.

This says it all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macedonia_overview.svg

Skopje only as a small portion of ancient Macedonia, Greece has the majority of it....get over it!

The Star of Vergina on a blue background is actually the official flag of the EU Prefecture of Macedonia, Greece. It is recognised by the EU so it is officially a symbol of the Hellenic Republic.

actually the Star of Vergina is thought to symbolize the Olympian Gods:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun

So one begs the question how Slavs such as Skopjans can claim this Hellenic symbol belongs to them unless they all start worshiping Zeus!

to MJ and Stefan - actually, I'm neutral, notably when observing that both sides are being rather silly. The Macedonian side is wrong to assume that the 1913 Treaty can be re-opened in 2013; all international Treaties are normally "valid in perpetuity". The Greek side is perhaps wrong to assign so much importance to the Star of Vergina - it has 16 points on the original larnax discovered in 1977 by the way, not twelve, so it cannot relate to the 12 hellenic gods - as the Japanese used both 8-point (Macedonia) and 16-point (Greece) versions during the Second World War as the main flag for the Japanese Imperial Navy,Army, and Japanese concentration camps in Burma and China. Same red/yellow or white colours, same design.

Unfortunately the Japanese forgot to register this as a trademark under the Paris Convention of 1883, whereas Greece did so in 1995. But by then the international damage had been done (by the Japanese) and as an international "brand" this symbol is totally discredited. So neither Greece nor Macedonia can use it to any advantage.

There - I told you I was neutral !

Those of you out there who still believe that Skopje should join NATO/EU after reading the previous post are insane

MJ, Cornelius supports the Macedonian cause and knows that Solun and Aegean Macedonia belongs to the Republic of Macedonia. If you greeks just learn to accept this then the easier it will be for you when 2013 approaches.

correction* that Thessaloniki and the Province of Macedonia belongs to them?

I am interested to hear what you have to say about that since you seem to be silent thus far on this matter despite the fact these types of post are increasing in number

The Star of Vergina symbolizes the 12 Olympian gods so I wonder Cornelius what claims do the inhabitants of the Vadar region make that justify their use of this symbol? Also as a neutral participant of this debate you claim to be I wonder what your opinion is on the increasing number of posts from Skopje that claim Thessaloniki and the Province of Macedonia belongs and that the Treaty of Bucharest expires soon?

What about the Nazi symbol the Skopjans so boldly put on the Greek flag...was that not a Macedonian symbol??? If Macedonia is not Greek then they should put that Macedonian symbol on their own flag especially since they welcomed the Nazis in the World War II thinking that Macedonia would be handed over to them!

Sorry - I wasn't very clear. What I should have said is that the original Star of Vergina Macedonian flag is virtually the same as the Japanese Imperial flag, and the revised Macedonian flag is even closer to the detested battle flag of the Imperial Japanese Army/Navy pre-1945. The layout and colours are the same; the only difference is that the Japanese one is slightly off-centre (sometimes).

I am a bit surprised that nobody picked this up before. Most Chinese of a certain age could have told Skopje, not to mention Australians and UK prisoners-of-war.

Unfortunately it also affects the Star of Vergina as claimed by the Greeks too. This is "tainted merchandise" on both sides of the Greek/Macedonian border, as far as international use goes.

Sorry to be a Little Ray Of Sunshine....

Aries - yes, the song went:

"There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun,
And it's been the ruin of many a girl,
And me, God knows, am one."

I think it was first performed by the Rolling Stones. It had rather a nice rolling blues tune in E minor.

The Rising Sun flag which I was referring to is what the Japanese called "Kyokujitsu-ki" (hope I've typed that right !) and was banned from display after 1945. It still carries very unpleasant associations in the Far East, from China to Australia. Unfortunately it and the associated Japanese Imperial flag are virtually the same as the Macedonian flag (old form=Imperial, new form= Japanese Army/Navy pre-1945. Also their kamikaze aircraft). I have copied you picture files off-line. One of life's more unfortunate coincidences, alas.

I haven't got a url to hand, but key "Imperial Japanese Army" into Google and you will get loads of US-sourced material. (Having once worked with the Japanese, I don't doubt the veracity of this info.)

All I can say now is "Ah so deska. Domo domo.Mushi-mushi. Sayonara"

Dr Cornelius there was a song
back in the sixties called "the House of the Rising Sun"
I do not recall the performing
group could you help?
I think my statement though a bit
bitchy depicts the truth i don't
see the reason to be more diplomatic when the opposite party
official state does not keep its part of the intermediate agreement
and is provocative,you perfectly understand to what.

i am referring to.

to Aries - not sure I'm too fond of your "Rising Sun" analogy, for reasons you know !

"When my clogs(special wooden shoes) will wear out"
Meaning never.
To Alexi
When the sun will rise in the west

@John:
"When will Macedonia reunite?"
How do they say in Bulgarian oops Macedonian:
"Kogato me cufnat nalumite."

to John - yes, it was indeed Tikves wine (sorry for the mis-spelling.) The others were Skovin A.D. and Vinarska Vizba Popova Kula A.D., plus the "FYROM" wine-label brand that I mentioned earlier, though this may have been labelled in the UK (as UK wine bottling/labelling has suddenly resumed after years of neglect, for environmental reasons.)

SOLUN is OURS!

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Once again I rest my case....Skopje is obviously not ready for NATO/EU which is clearly shown from previous posts!

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Greece has stollen 51% of Macedonia and 40% of Macedonian nation since 1913.



EU has to pressure Greece to restore these injustices.



After all 2013 is very close.

greece has always been populated by turks and albanians, the greek revolution named by the superpowers in 1821 gave these people a language and a religion only used within the greek church and the superpowers put in place as king Prince Otto Friedrich Ludwig of Bavaria born in austria. funny enough hitler was born there too.

Greece is afraid to let Macedonia become a member of NATO because that way they are supposed to give Macedonia's territory that is in Greece to Macedonia.According to the San Stefanian deal that is made in 1913 after 100 years(2013) Greece should give Macedonia's territory back.So, in NATO or not in NATO we 're getting our territory back.LONG LIVE MACEDONIA!!!

A Macedonian patriot the other day was talking to me about history and how grease brutally occupied Macedonia by force in 1913 because of the Treaty of Bucharest.

He said that there are secret documents which grease has that show that the treaty will expire in 2013 (100 years) and that Macedonia will retake Solun and also the whole of neoTurk occupied Macedonia along with the 3,000,000 people living there.

What do you guys think about this? I would love to raise the Macedonian flag in Solun and get rid of the newTurk signs in Macedonia.

is this a joke? The more you dream of Greek Macedonia the more you dig yourselves your own grave.

Macedonia will remain occupied as long as the Macedonian people are unrecognized, abused and made to feel like strangers on their own native lands. It is a well known fact that Macedonia was invaded, occupied and illegally partitioned by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria in 1912-1913 against the wishes of the Macedonian people. The Serbian occupied part, now known as the Republic of Macedonia gained its independence in 1991 and is today a sovereign state while the parts annexed by Greece and Bulgaria remain occupied.

There is no Macedonian who at one point or another did not think or ask the questions; "Will Macedonia be reunited again?" "When will Macedonia be reunited?" How will Macedonia be reunited?" Before answering these questions every Macedonian and non Macedonian must consider "Why Macedonia must be reunited."

So, "Why should Macedonia be reunited?"

For starters Macedonia belongs to the Macedonian people and the Macedonian people want to live together. Macedonia was illegally occupied and partitioned between Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria under false pretenses and without the Macedonian peoples' consent. If this was done by mistake, then that mistake must be rectified. If it was done intentionally then Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria will have to answer to it. They are responsible for creating the problem and they should be responsible for correcting it.

"How will Macedonia be reunited?"

Macedonia cannot be reunited without the willingness of Greece and Bulgaria. Unfortunately this willingness cannot develop as long as Greece and Bulgaria deny the existence of Macedonians and refuse to accept the fact that they illegally occupied and annexed Macedonian territories. The first step in gaining this willingness is to have Greece and Bulgaria recognize the existence of ethnic Macedonians not only in the Republic of Macedonia but also in their respective territories. In other words, Greece and Bulgaria must allow its citizens to self declare their ethnic identities with their support and protection. The next step is to accept the fact that Macedonia was partitioned without the Macedonian peoples' consent and then by referendum allow Macedonians to make the choice of separating and reuniting with other Macedonians or remaining within their respective states. Macedonians may chose to reunite Macedonia culturally and still remain administratively tied to the existing states. But until the Macedonian people are given that choice, we will not know.

"When will Macedonia reunite?"

Macedonia has a better chance of reuniting in some form or another after the Republic of Macedonia joins the European Union when the current borders inside geographic Macedonia are dissolved.

Macedonians should strive to achieve their rights in Greece and Bulgaria first before looking for some sort of cultural independence for all of Macedonia. Greece and Bulgaria must be willing partners before any re-unification can occur. This is a long term process and must be achieved by peaceful means.

helsing its tikves wine, glad you like it

to Kosovar_Al : yes, I know very well about Ghegs and Tosks forming the two peoples of Albania, and that they are descended from the ancient Illyrians who were dispossed of much of their ancient lands by both Slavs and Greeks (later by Turks too).

Beyond that, I was a NATO delegate for some years, so I think I know of what I speak. NATO had problems in 1974 with the Turkish invasion of Cyprus (fortunately not part of Greek territory depite ENOSIS, or there would have been real problems!), but since then all member-nations of NATO have lived amicably together (even the French !)

If you have any further issues or problems, I suggest that you seek medical advice for "agression therapy"

***"Dr Cornelius van Helsing

Wed, May 13 2009 12:24 CET

Inappropriate comment?
What John says is both dangerous and informative. "Dangerous" because re-opening 1913 treaties is probably a Very Bad Idea world-wide. "Informative" because, if Macedonia were within NATO, NATO rules forbid one NATO member-nation from opening hostilities with another. (This is why I think the Greek NATO veto on Macedonian membership was an obvious "own goal"; they should have used it on Albania instead)

Another version of the "Law Of Unintended Consequences
"***Dr.NO,remember Albanians are in the Balkans same time if not before the Greeks!Historically Albanians and Greeks have more in common than Slavic people,beside this don't forget that there are 2 Albanian States in the Balkan,it seems to me that you are here just to spread hate,your comments are very low level of knowledge(Wikipedia).I think you are an Retarded student rather than a Dr.!"Dr" stay on the subject here Fyrom-Greece?You are just a low life HATER , nothing more Mr. Dr NOBODY.PS.Hey Dog oops DOC i know someone who was a patient in Hospital for some time after he was released he claimed to be a Dr.is "this guy" you,or you are just another identical twin case?

What John says is both dangerous and informative. "Dangerous" because re-opening 1913 treaties is probably a Very Bad Idea world-wide. "Informative" because, if Macedonia were within NATO, NATO rules forbid one NATO member-nation from opening hostilities with another. (This is why I think the Greek NATO veto on Macedonian membership was an obvious "own goal"; they should have used it on Albania instead)

Another version of the "Law Of Unintended Consequences".....

Once again another Skopjan reveals the true face and hidden agenda of Skopje. You fanatics are starting to become quite sloppy and you're definitely not helping your cause.

At yesterday's London International Wine Fair I visited the Macedonian stand (some nice wines, especially from Tikve). To my slight amusement, there was no mention of FYROM on the stand itself - just Macedonia - but there were bottles of wine labelled FYROM in large letters as a "brand name". When I asked the stand staff about this, they said that it was proving to be a very good international "brand name" -
it obeyed all the brand name rules about being short, memorable, and pronounceable in different languages (just like 'Coco-Cola').

So, in short, the Macedonian wine industry were very pleased with the 'FYROM' brand, and thanked Greece for handing them such a useful marketing advantage free-of-charge.

(This is probably a good example of the Law Of Unintended Consequences !)

The Greek wine stand, in contrast, was a little bit uninspired. With brand names like "Ktima Biblia Chora" they really can't compete with 'Fyrom'. (The worst is the Greek Cyprus brand "Arsinoe", which goes like like a tone of lead in the English-speaking world.)

The most audacious wine brand name ? The Australian "Bonking Frog" ! "Bonking" is a very rude word in UK and Australian English, but not understood in USA. It means 'copulating' (to use the polite word).

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first of all the bible mentions paul went to Athens, Thessaly, Ephesus...etc. So according to your logic these places are not greek because the bible does not say Greek

Second of all, St Paul spoke to the Macedonians in Greek and not in your version of Bulgarian.

Any basic ancient history course will tell you that the Greek world was not restricted to Athens but consisted of many different cities. Alexandria of Egypt was a Greek city and it's on the otherside of the Mediterranean!

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read the bible, st.paul went to macedonia then southward to greece, wouldn't they just write st.paul went to greece and visited macedonia.
romans took part in the olympic games doesn't mean there greek, how do greeks stop conqurers and rulers like macedonians and romans taking part, they can't. Barbarians = Non Greek , Macedonians called barbarians by a greek demosthenes. Macedonian united with greece forcefully in 1913 never before that. Read maps

to Thomas
Very well said

Dr Cornelius
Viele danken for the informmtive post you sent
the quote of Clanchy Antigona
is quitre similar to Talliban customs and Barbarism
will ponder on the url
Thanks again mon ami.

Aries - is a short quote from the UK novelist Kate Clanchy from 2008 about Antigona, an Albanian refugee. It describes part of the Kanun of Lek much better than I can (doesn't mention the blood-feud provisions, though.)

<<Antigona had escaped not only a war, but a backward and oppressive culture, ruled by a code called the Kanun of Lek. Although ancient, it is alive and well in villages hugging the granite mountainsides, and seems, to a western reader, completely made up. "I know," says Clanchy, laughing at the absurdity. Men (though only those born into specific clans) are equal under the Kanun; women are men's property and are only good for carrying water, firewood and children. They are bought by husbands and can be beaten for idleness, abandoned for not producing sons and killed for a number of reasons, most of which involve bringing shame on their husbands and family. They can't divorce their husbands, though, weirdly, they can live as "sworn virgins" - they have to dress as men and remain celibate all their lives. And so the fact that Antigona not only escapes a life of drudgery, but divorces her violent husband, is all the more remarkable.>>

It was the Albanian "Kanun of Lek", basically blood-feud law and custom, revived in 1991 after the fall of Communism. One UN URL is:
unece.org/stats/gender/publications/Albania/DomesticViolence.pdf . If this doesn't work, a Google on "Kanun of Lek" brings up several informative items on the first page.

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Skopje needs to recognize the Province of Macedonia, and the existence of Greek Macedonians. Skopje also needs to formally reject all and any claims to Thessaloniki and all lands under the control of Thessaloniki.

Dr Cornelius
What the name of the "kanoun" which
was abolished during the communist regime existed before it and tends to come back?
To cope with the possible B.A
issue needsd more than a Greece-Macedonia cooperatioN it also needs
Serbis and Bulgaria .

to KL - yes, I rather see your point! Peter is just dreadful.

But surely the whole raison d'etre of pan-national bodies such as EU and NATO is to PREVENT wars between member-states (EU) and member-nations (NATO). The exclusion of Macedonia (I'll use the English spelling this time) may thus turn out to have been a bit of a mistake.

Cornelius/David, now do you understand why Luxembourg and Macedonia are two very different situations??? Hint, just read peter's post

this problem will be solved when Greece and Albania are defeated in the third balkan wars in 2013. Macedonia and Turkey forever!

to Kosovar-Al. What's wrong with spelling Makedonija the way the locals do? This is a rule I tend to adopt when dealing with any country, like Lietuva (Lithuania), Polska (Poland), Slovenija, Magyarorszag (Hungary), Espana (Spain), Moldova (Moldavia), and so on. (Actually, in Moldova the locals get very cross if you don't use the local-language form of their name !)

So it doesn't logically follow that I myself am a Slav at all. (Incidentally, what is wrong with being a "Slav" ? I have many good Polish and Russian friends who are Slavs too, but it doesn't seem to matter up here in Northern Europe.
Lithuanians, by the way, are Balts and not Slavs, and Estonians/Hungarians are Finno-Ugric, as are the Finns / Suomi.)

Hope this enlightens your apparently rather blinkered view of life.

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Macedonian- I place the following challenge to you and all of the concorted "Macedonian" ethnicity: If you ever come across an authentic, legitimate relic or find of the ancient Macedonian kingdom with an inscription other than in the Greek language, you shall have achieved the discovery of all times. You need not despair, however. There is no time limit!
YOU HAVE UNTIL THE COLLAPSE OF OUR SOLAR SYSTEM!

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@ So called Dr.Cornelius van Helsing:Why do you have to hide and pretend you are not a Slavic FYROM.No one writes in English the name "Makedonija" except Slavs.Be your self or are you ashamed who you are???

@ Dr.Cornelius:Albania and Kosovo have no interest of forming a "Big Albania",our interest is to live in peace with our neighbours and of course to be respected as equal partners.As for FYROM,they have bad record when it comes to Albanians who live there before Slavs arrived.No neighbour is interested to destroy Fyrom,the Fyrom is going to destroy it self from inside with their politics toward its "minorities" and it's neighbours,be it Kosovo,Albania,Greek or now Bulgaria.Fyrom is shooting it self in the foot...!_Dr.Cornelius,why should Albania and Kosovo create a Great Albania in 1 state 1 vote, when they will have 2 States 2 votes for everything in the future!Just tell me why?Again i support Greeks 1000% in this case.Recently i read one article online,an Greek official(not sure who he was..)stated that there is no threat for Greek or Balkans having an Independent Kosovo,instead it is better for the regions economy and stability...the main problem is the Fyrom position/attitude in the Country's name...!

Aries - I well see your point about the "Big Albania" aspiration, especially in relation to Kosova/Kosovo. But does this not mean that Greece and Makedonija should sink their differences now and form a united front against probable Albanian attempts/ incursions on both their territories ? Or is this a non-Balkan sensible solution to what would indeed appear to be a very pertinent question .....?

with Equal respect Dr Cornelius
i see your point which is 100 percent correct about Patton and the batlle of the Ardennes where the nazi recruited little boys of 15 and 16 among tired soldiers for an all out battle.
i do not mean the then balkans
but todays situation in the Balkans
the South stream project, the situation with Kossovo the Big albania aspiration, which have no ,up to my knowledge, similar issues in nothern Europe.

Aries - with respect, in 1944/45 the Germans assigned the highest geo-political importance to the Ardennes offensive (involving both the Belgian Province of Luxembourg and the Grand Duchy of Luxembo(u)rg), and no less a Big Cheese that General Patten himself was sent in to sort it all out. In the end the Germans lost, but only by a small margin. It was probably a more important "cockpit of war" than was the Balkans at the time. And yet they all live at peace now. Need I say more ?

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to KL - not quite the end of story. There is an independent state (a Grand Duchy) of Luxembourg/Luxemburg. Adjacent to it is quite a large "Province de Luxembourg" belonging to the French-speaking half of Belgium. This apparently anomalous situation hasn't caused any problems for either Belgium or the Grand Duchy since 1832 when Belgium was created, so I don't see why an identical situation shouldn't be established in Macedonia: Greek province of Macedonia one side of the border, autonomous Republika Makedonija on the other. And nobody invades or threatens anybody, any more than they do in Luxemb(o)urg, as the Belgian road-signs say.

Has amyone worked out my Great Mongolian Curse on Peter yet ?

Yoobuul boobull (this is apparently the Mongolian for "Have a Nice Day". It looks better in Cyrillic.)

Cornelius

Sonia Hopkins
Not all learned have the insight
of a Cicero the problem remains and will remain whenever fanatism
exists. They know but they won't admit.
By the way permit me a little
fine tuning the Slavs nominally arrived in the Balkans circa 681 ad the land they occupied was sometimes given sometimes fought for from the Byzatines.

Modern Macedonia is a EU prefecture in northern Greece with the capital as Thessaloniki. End of Story

Dr Cornelius
Thank you very much for the hint
about Mongolian Cyrillic, it is a very challenging.
"Do no worry you will not rot in hell with the Greeks" its The Peter Guy who will Collapse because of his fanatic nationalistic attitude

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It is not only this just published book that categorically states that `Macedonia` is a construct , but even British publisged Guides to Bulgaria that state that so called ` Macedonians` are in reality Bulgarians , but after the ww11 divisions Tito eager to debilitate the power of Serbia in the Yugoslav federation encouraged these Bulgarians within the Yugo federation to form a NEW National Identity.
Secondly the correct name of this territory is VARDANSKA.
Thirdly there is absolutely NO connection between these slavic peoples who now call themselves `MACEDONIANS` and ALEXANDER OF MACEDON, who was greek by education, and who as the great general that he was returned the LOOT FROM HIS CONQUESTS to ATHENS the capital of his GREEK empire and not even to his birthplace - pELA - THAT `S HOW MUCH THis ARISTOtle Educated genius considered himself a GREEK.
AS Cicero said - before the word Greek - `you should bow your head` .
THese Bulgarians turned `Macedonians` are slavs who came during the slav invasions of EUROPE into Vardanska in the 1500s. NO CONNECTION WITH ALEXANDER THE GREAT THE GREAT GREEK.
It seems to me that the Balkans as a whole need to re-educate themselves to realise like WEstern Europe has, and most of the world- Japan , China , USA what Greece has offered the Universe. The very intellectual oxygen that the modern world breathes comes from little but TOWERING Greece.
Sonia Hopkins

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Obviously Peter the Macedonian could not read the Cyrillic script of my last posting, though possibly the fact that it is in Mongolian and not Macedonian (and uses the correct Cyrillic alphabet rather than the Macedonian 'bastard' version) did not help. Anyway, it contains a great and lasting curse on Peter and all his progeny, not so much "rot in hell" as "burn in everlasting torments" and other refinements known to the underworld.

cornelius you are a fool, you will bow down to Great and United Macedonia or rot in hell with the greeks

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And here's a sample of Mongolian (clue to Peter: this is definitely not Macedonian or Bulgarian, though it is in standard Cyrillic script):

ОНЦЛОХ мэдээ ШИНЭ мэдээ

“Хямралын эсрэг хамтдаа” өдөрлөг боллоо (15:50)
Эх орноо хөгжүүлэх, эдийн засгийн болон оюун санааны хямралаас гарахад иргэн бүрийн санал санаачлага, хандив тусламжийг нэгтгэн цуглуулж, олон нийтийн санаачлагаар, тэдний хяналт дор тулгамдсан асуудлыг шийдвэрлэх, тодорхой бүтээн байгуулалт хийх зорилготой “Хямралын эсрэг хамтдаа” аян эхлээд багагүй хугацаа өнгөрлөө.

Aries - yes the 'J' in Macedonian is in proper Cyrillic a reversed R for 'ya', but it comes out as IO (with a bridging bit in between for 'yu',) and as 'E' for 'ye'. To those of us accustomed to reading proper Cyrillic script in Russian or indeed Bulgarian, the Serbian/Macedonian alphabet comes out as a bit of a "bastard" creation. (Before everyone jumps on mu back, "bastard" is the correct academic English for a hybrid or mongrel development.)

I haven't got either form of Cyrillic installed on my computer, or I could give better examples.

If you want to see a really impressive bit of adaptation of (Russian) Cyrillic to a totally different language, try Mongolian.

Mary, come on now, if you read all of the previous posts none of the Greeks nor Bulgarians speak of conquering Skopje yet many of the posts from the Skopjan side speak of "taking back" Thessaloniki and shedding Greek blood with the help of Turkey. The reality is my dear quite clear, if Skopje does not smarten up, then no one in the region will win except for Greater Albania. So do yourself a favour and learn to love thy neighbours or learn Albanian because you're going to need to.

Dr cornelius
a typing error Andrew and not ander
The "j" in "macedonian" is "я"
in "bulgarian"

history cannot be rewritten.strength to the beautiful macedonians.your place in history will treasured.greece and bulgaria will never conquer your wonderful culture and history.this will be their vietnam.they will not win.the end of the cold war tells us all is possible

Dr cornelius
HRH prince Philip Duke of
Edinburgh is indded son of the Princess of Battenberg but also of Ander of Greece and Danemark the
House of Glocsburhg was born in Corfu he is acousin to tHe ex-King of Greece Constantine.

Aries - thanks for the explanation about "charlatanic" - now I understand ! Also thanks for the info about UK Prince Philip's German royal credentials - to which I would just add that his mother was Princess Battenberg (not an obvious Greek name), so maybe we should all leave it there. The only thing Djinghis got a bit wrong is that the Cyrillic alphabets as used in Macedonia and Bulgaria are not at all the same, so a Bulgarian (or a Russian-speaker like me) would have problems with a lot of the consonant characters and some of the vowels (especially the letter 'J'). The spoken language is more similar, though again there are differences - 'molim' (please) becomes 'molya' in Bulgarian, and in place of 'blagodariyu' Bulgarians have a disconcerting habit of saying "merci" !

Enough of this - my stakeholders are calling me back to Transylvania, and they all vorbite Romanesti / speak Romanian.

Djinghis
The fanatic Skopians in diaspora
and in Fyrom never admit that they are Bulgarians brainwashed by communist propaganda (titoism)
they are full of complexes they always rely on other people
to solve their proble may people
who want to travel more easily
in Eu go to Bulgaria take a bulgarian passpost.when they cornered they always refer to USA or even Turkey they cannot
even racall that they were under Ottoman yoke for 500 years.

Macedonia is neither Greek nor Skopjan but rather it is a proven fact that it is Bulgarian. The only reason the government of Skopje brain-washed its citizen was because they have no history so they stole Bulgarian history. Peter stop making up lies, and let's be honest, we speak the SAME language don't we? It's a known fact that when you Skopjans travel to Bulgaria you have no need for dictionaries/translators because we speak the same language...Bulgarian!!!

peter is right, Solun belongs to the Republic of Macedonia and when the Bucharest Treaty ends in a couple years, Greece's foreign rule over Solun will come to an end. you greeks have dug your own graves

you stupid greek, everyone knows that you lobby in the US senate to have us dissolved. thank god that Turkey is in alliance with us because you stand not a chance against them. Solun rightfully belongs to Macedonia and not to northern greece.

cornelius, you are no better than the greeks but then again it's not your fault that your prince is a greek!

Dr Cornelius
Etymology:Italian ciarlatano,
one making usually showy pretenses to knowledge or ability : fraud, faker
— char·la·tan·ism
— char·la·tan·ry
We use the word "tsarlatanos" in Greece as synonymous to "Faker"
Peter when a person sees conspicaries everywhere he should
be treated (GO TO DOCTOR BY HIMSELF
OR IF IT'S THAT DEEP HE CANNOT RREALIZE HIS CONDITION BY HIMSELF BBE TAKEN FORCE TO ONE )
Philip was originally a royal prince of Greece and Denmark, and thus a member of the Danish-German House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg but rennounced these titles to become Philip Lord of Mountbaten.

Dr Cornelius
Etymology:Italian ciarlatano,
one making usually showy pretenses to knowledge or ability : fraud, faker
— char·la·tan·ism
— char·la·tan·ry
We use the word "tsarlatanos" in Greece as synonymous to "Faker"
Peter when a person sees conspicaries everywhere he should
be treated (GO TO DOCTOR BY HIMSELF
OR IF IT'S THAT DEEP HE CANNOT RREALIZE HIS CONDITION BY HIMSELF BBE TAKEN FORCE TO ONE )
Philip was originally a royal prince of Greece and Denmark, and thus a member of the Danish-German House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg but rennounced these titles to become Philip Lord of Mountbaten.

well Cornelius, if wikipedia is not so bad then why does it say that your prince philip is a greek who was born on Corfu????!?!? Also, the british royal family site confirms this as well:

http://www.britroyals.com/family.asp?id=philip

the husband of your queen is greek!!! ha do i ever feel sorry for you and not to mention this explains everything why your people are against Great and United Macedonia...there is a greek in your midst! It makes me sick to think that your future king will be part greek...how disgusting! you brits are pathetic!

Peter - oh dear, you really should add more water to your drink next time. Wikipedia has been criticised from many quarters - sometimes fairly, sometimes not - but I have never heard of it being an anti-Macedonian Greek conspiracy before. What are your facts for alleging this ?

I should remind you and others that I originally entered this debate on the Macedonian side of the argument, but now I feel rather more neutral in my views, not least because of idiosyncratic polemic (now there's two Greek words for you !) arguments such as your own. As for Prince Philip (and yes, I have met him), he is of German royal heritage rather than Greek. He is a pleasant man with a rather important wife, so let us leave him out of the arguments (though I suppose one could say - using your favourite expression - that he is hiding inside his wife's skirts !)

cornelius I now understand why you have no knowledge of Macedonia since you get your information from wikipedia (a conspiracy website set up by the greeks to falsify facts such as Macedonian history) you british distorted history in favour of the greeks and committing ehtnic genocide of the Macedonian heritage in the process. You even say your prince philip is a greek when in fact he is a Macedonian (we all know that philip is a Macedonian word) You supporters of greeks should rot in hell

What's wrong with Wikipedia ? It is not an "ultimate" source of information, of course, but it gives a good general background on a given subject 99% of the time, and is very easy to use and accessible to all. Quite what Djinghis means by "Charlatanic" is beyond my comprehension, even though I thought I knew English fairly well. Could he please explain ?

Oh please, another self-professed historian? Spare us the farce, you're not the only one with the same so-called desire to "educate" others, you and a couple other thousand fanatics. Do yourself a favour and stick to your day job. Honestly people, history is history, rewriting it is not going change anything.

Please, don´t come with any Wikipedia - it is not accepted as a source at Universities. You have to studie beyond that and beyond University since many of them are ignorant of history.
And I see you are very NAIVE. Bulgarians are oldest ant the so called Greek history and culture is ancient Bulgarian - Macedonia is Volga Bulgar name to begin with (Turkic) and has always been a Region durin Empires time. I have to go to work so I don´t have time to educate beginners in history. For that is not only necessary to do a lot of reading but also is required logical thinking. And last one word for today. Most of you just know ABC... a very superficial information which itself is propagandistic. A lot of hear-sayings and coffe shopp history. A spred of old propagandas. Don´t forget about conspiracies and politics.So read real books for God sake. School books are CHARLATANIC!!!

If you all haven't noticed by now there seems to be common trends between the Skopjan and Greek posts. In general, all of the Skopjan posts have phrases such as "Great" or "United" Macedonian and even "Glorious" Macedonia. The Greek posts do not have such phrases, no Great/United Greece is mention neither Glory to Greece.

We also observe a common theme of "reconquering" or "reclaim" "Solun" from the Greeks with some mentioning receiving help from Turkey. None of the Greek posts mention anything about conquering Skopje nor telling another race to rot in hell.

If Skopje wants to join NATO/EU it is in serious need of a major makeover

Another fanatic and another extremist full of hate. This world would be a happier place if it weren't for some of these peters.

Aries - you are quite right. Let us leave them to sink in their own mess. (I do think that this site needs a bit of a more active role from the Moderators, though.)

This post is nothing more than a gutter of vulgarity
My god Cornelius how can you possibly continue posting
it stands the same chance as a snowball in hell being optimistic here.

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Peter - you are getting very repetitive. Maybe something is wrong either with you or with your computer ?

helsing i'm only stating lies,not my fault people don't like it just as i don't like what people write about us especially bullshit, i'm starting an uprising and i AM an extremist, i'm just a lover of ancient history especially that of BULGARIAN history.

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helsing i'm only stating facts,not my fault people don't like it just as i don't like what people write about us especially bullshit, i'm not starting an uprising or am i an extremist, i'm just a lover of ancient history especially that of macedonian history.

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Peter you and your kind are a shame to the Slavic world. The Apostle Paul, the Princess Olga and Vladimir, St Methodius and Cyril would be and are disgusted with you. You call yourselves "Orthodox Christians" and yet you wish your neighbours of the same faith to rot in hell???? It is clear now that you worship no god but only idols of alexander/philip. I always wondered why the church of skopje was not part of the Orthodox Churches and now I see why (I am Ukrainian).

May I also remind you that it is not your authority to condemn people to rot in hell and that you yourself are a mortal who will die one day and rot in the ground. Wisdom would be your greatest ally, hate will only betray you in the end

Oh Peter, do shut up or else get another hobby. Apart from attracting extremists, you are doing your own Macedonian cause no good at all. Ferme ta gueule.

iosef, if you read what i said i didn't diss islam, i said nothing against muslims which meant nothing against muslims but i know europe would not allow a powerful muslim nation in europe thats what i wrote just my opinion, i was dissing arabs and albanians not the religion there's a difference.Greeks and bulgarians are christian but there still scum, they will rot in hell. I'm talking historical facts and you got a radical albanian who wants to take over nations lands they never owned including kosovo. You conquered us but never destroyed us. You could have but you didn't. You can have greece if you want it. I was hoping we would still be under turk occupation at least we still would have had every bit of macedonian soil,they still let us build churches and monasteries and lived life as normal but just paying higher taxes, who cares.

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I am a Turk and I speak for all Turks when I say that if you diss Islam or any nation that is Islamic then you and your little Skopje can burn in hell. We conquered and destroyed you once and we will do it again. Do you really think that we will give you greek Macedonia when we reconquer it???? pathetic gullible slavs

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i have a lot of turkish friends and if there calling other muslims arab scum then it shows of how much they care.

Ahmed, don't make me laugh, even though your muslim, turks hate arab scumbags and they look at you that way too. The last thing america would do is give you tanks. Greater albania in your dreams. Don't forget the serbs. America is scared of russia and that why russia supplies us with our weapons as do serbia. Remember who gave us weapons in the last war bulgaria, but were not sure if there was an agenda there or just bring friendly, We would crush you. There will be someone there to help us and since america found out albanian scum had links with osama they tend to stray away from you guys after supporting you at first. Nothing against muslims but europe would not want a major muslim country just as they didn't want russian influence years ago over certain countries. Your terrorist criminal scum that should be wiped out of europe and sent back to the middle east were ancient albania was on the otherside of turkey.

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I wonder why the Skopjans received the Nazi's with joy and banners of celebration?

It seems this issue can only be settled by Nature's method: survival of the fittest. Skopje and Athens should battle it out like the old days and we shall never here of it again. Winner takes all, name, alexander etc. You all are just talk and dont know how to walk the walk. Get a life (ie PEter)

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I agree entirely with Aries - Peter is a broken clock that no longer tells the right time (except - fleetingly - twice a day, as the Russians say). But this means that 99.9% of the time what he says is merde /gowno / to be ignored.

To all
Please do not argue with the broken
mind of Peter it is completely useless the guy is for the cuckoo nest suffers of dementia senilis

A tout le monde - wszystcy - taisez-vous - prosze o milczenie.
(to Peter, if you don't understand the French, you might understand the Polish as - selon vous / wedlug Pana - all Macedonians can understand any other Slav language, or so you say.)

Meanwhile, au Pierre, strc prc strk dupe (that's very rude indeed in Czech or Polish, so I can't translate it.)

Djinghis be proud of your asian ancestors.

Djinghis just as paeonians were wiped out so were thracians, bulgars came from asia,bulgars had asian appearance before the slav migration of the look bulgarians have today. the slavs took the name bulgars and were given the macedonian langauge and religion by our saints because the bulgars were probably speaking an asian dialect and the slavs were given a macedonian dialect, don't claim ancient roots and history from other nations. Bulgaria is not mentioned in the bible, macedonia and greece are, oldest nation in your fantasy world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria

Dejan, you are imbecil. Bulgaria have no history? You don´t have it. You steal Bulgarian history calling it Macedonian. Fyromanian Serbofied LIES. To begin with, You were poor slaves to Romans and Byzantines. Bulgars saved the people from the region Macedonia and you were incorporated within Bulgarian Epire for centuries. You speak Bulgarian language originating from Moesian (Thracian) language. End of discussion.

Macedonian, don´t talk BULSHIT. Bulgarians (Thracians)are Europes oldest people. And Bulgaria is Europes oldest National State (681). Macedonia was only a Region called Macedonia. This region was owned by Thraco-Illyrians, Romans, Byzantines and Bulgars. You speak Bulgarian language - not Macedonian. Face it and don´t lie to yourselves.

why dont you all get along and smoke a joint then?

Peter - you will doubtless recall that 1938 was also the year of the Nazi-Soviet Pact, so the Nazi erection of a pro-Slav statue was not at all surprising (a similar ambiguity surrounds the "Brivibas" (Freedom) massive national memorial in the centre of Riga, Latvia, which was erected by the Latvian Nationalist Party (slightly fascist) in 1936 and adopted by the Communists in 1945.)

Beyond that, if you really understood the Czech (which I doubt), then post a brief summary of what the Vecerni Praha article actually said. (Clue: it concerns the Roma minority).

Najlepsze zyczenia i z szacunkiem wielkim - serdecznie (this is Polish, but I'm sure that Macedonians can easily understand it too - w Szczebrzeszyne chrzaszcz brzmi w Trcinie, i wiec stuplisk.)

lol and you call me an idiot, funniest thing i've ever read regarding macedonian politics, why would the nazi's put macedonian saints as statues, we fought them in the war and of all the saints to choose from they pick macedonian one's, if it wasn't so hilarious it would be f..king sad. That said i'm done with you, no point after that comment, shows how much you know, and if your czech you should be ashamed of yourself not knowing who put statues up in your own homeland, by the way i understood about 80% of what you wrote, i'm done with you, who's next.

If the Prague statue was erected in 1938 it was probably put there by the Nazis, who by then had occupied Praha (Prague). And if the languages are all so similar, just translate this for me (from today's Vecerni Praha), prosim pekne: Romskou bitku rozehnali policisté varovnými výstřelyŽehra - Obyvatelé slovenské romské osady na sebe zaútočili mačetami, rozehnaly je až výstřely z policejních zbraní.
Autor:
ČTK
16×komentářů dnes 13:14 aktualizováno dnes 19:37

Romský král Gejza Horváth, hlavní hrdina snímku o slovenské obci Žehra, který byl nedávno vysílán českou televizí.
Autor: Česká televizePřibližně stovka lidí se v pondělí večer zapojila do hromadné bitky v romské osadě ve východoslovenské obci Žehra. Dvě skupiny se vzájemně napadly mačetami a dalšími zbraněmi, na místě musela zasahovat policie. Dav se podařilo uklidnit až po použití varovných
výstřelů. Při střetu se zranilo několik Romů, řekl okresní policejní ředitel ze Spišské Nové Vsi Jaroslav Dulík.

"V obci se podařilo nastolit pořádek až po použití služebních zbraní, padlo několik varovných výstřelů," uvedl Dulík. Na místě podle něj zasahovaly téměř tři desítky policistů s dvěma služebními psy.

Není prý zatím jasné, kolik lidí bylo při útoku zraněno, protože ne všichni se sami přihlásili. Romové však údajně policistům dobrovolně vydali tři sečné zbraně.

Důvodem bitky byl zřejmě konflikt, který v obci vypukl po nedávných komunálních volbách. Do sporu se dostali stoupenci nově zvoleného starosty a podporovatelé jeho předchůdce. Výsledky dubnových voleb napadly v uplynulých dnech obyvatelé obce a jeden z kandidátů i u slovenského ústavního soudu.

(end of quote)

djekuju vam z hory (thanks in advance)

back to the original article on this web page but it always seems to be our friends and neighbours who write and find these books. Go the propanaga machine, still in use i can see.

as for alexander could you tell me what hellenism he spread to the east apart from conquering all of it including greece. The only thing greeks spread to the world was aids. We peacefully preached to 500 million people our language and religion and greeks by force tortured, jailed or killed a few million macedonians, turks and albanians to speak there language. Such a nice bunch of people.

i'm sure you know that even though cro's slovenians and czechs even though they write in latin when you read it to them it is basically the same as macedonian only slightly different. When st.cyril and st.metodi preached to these people including russia all these nations took the language and changed a few letters to suit themselves. i don't know the exact letters but for example a serb a might be a macedonian i or a croatian t might be a macedonian b but when saying the word it is understood because it might be a few letters different but still the same word and meaning just to bring people up to speed as to why there are 500 million people speaking macedonian.

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small too, i think you need to read a bit more.

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Peter - you idiot - the big statue in the centre of Prague in the Old Town Square isn't St Cyril / St Methodius at all - it's the Czech reformer Jan Hus, burnt by the Inquisition in 1414 and now a Czech national hero (also, he founded the Hussite church.) Prague has the largest number of statues of any European city, more even than Vienna, and just because you might find a small pair of suburban statues to St Cyril and St Method in amongst all the other statues to St John Nepomuk (a local favourite) and St Ursula the Unfortunate among many others, does not make the Czechs into vanguard carriers of the Slavonic cause in the Balkans. Most Czechs regard the Balkans as deeply uncivilised and have little sympathy for their "Slavonic" brothers in former Yugoslavia, except perhaps for the Slovenes, who share their 'Austrian' Habsburg background. Dear Peter -
do not presume to lecture me about
Czech or Central European history, as I fancy I know a great deal more about it than you do.

Pravda vitezi (Jan Hus) "Truth shall conquer", 1413. Or, as they also say in Czech, "Strc prc strk krk", which means "stick your finger somewhere it is not normally intended to go" - that's the polite version.

as for illyria, i'm still yet to find and answer anywhere that these were ancient albanians, as there was an albania on the otherside of turkey near armenia i think these people either migrated to now albania or the turks forced them out, i'm still yet to believe there ancient illyrians and historians think the same, it does mean alexanders mother is illyrian and makes alexander macedonian illyrian either way he's either half greek or albanian but most importantly macedonian.

goce delcev was buried in bulgaria and given back to his rightful place of birth in macedonia, he was born in the capital of macedonia in salonika before greeks laid foot in the place in 1912. Greeks are in denial. You can bring out a million facts and maps as to why macedonia has always been called macedonia and it has never been a part of hellas and they still don't have an answer. Our president was bribed thats why he was almost assasinated,the only thing i'm ashamed about is that it didn't finish him off. He is a disgrace to the macedonian people. Remember he's a politician not a historian,there is a difference and politicians are corrupt. I still have yet to find a greek to answer me this question but if we were slavs that came in 600ad how did we just waltz in if it wasn't our land, so we just moved in and pushed the greeks southward, there is not mention of a war or invasion. So us slavs you say just came in and took all of macedonia from the aegean to serbia but lost half in 1913. I don't believe it because its bs and there are no facts anywhere stating this claim. Its greek propaganda. The slavs migrated to the balkans but they intermingled with every country including greece. Ancient lands such as Dalmatia, macedonia, illyria, moesia and achia were the lands there when these slavs came. It was a mass migration not a settlement in vacant lands.

if you go to the capital of the czech repubulic they have statues in the centre of the city of saint cyril and metodi , the saint that spread christianity and the language to these people, if you know your history.

to Aries: there is an old Russian proverb that says that "even a broken clock still briefly tells the correct time twice a day". This applies to Peter the Dreadful.

Beyond that, as you correctly surmise, I tend to play the part of devil's advocate. The quality of some of the argument on this site needs a bit of "constructive challenge", after all.

I'd better sign off now, as my various stakeholders in Transylvania are becoming impatient.

Culture is defined by language. Find the root of the language, you find the root of the culture.
Plus artifacts speak for themselves.

Vinko Pribojevic (Father of Pan-Slavism) in 1525 also said the following: "So there is no reason for anyone to be puzzled that Ottoman Sultan put so much praise in people of Slavic origin, that almost all of his commanders are appointed from their ranks, and that he maintains the corps, almost 20,000 strong for his personal guard composed of Thracians, Macedonians and Illyrians."

He also said following: "Who can bestow high enough praise to the Slavs to reflect their glory? With their bravery they had humbled the arrogant Persians, weakened the
mighty Assyrians and Medes, overthrown the famed Egyptians, defeated the brave Greeks, conquered the indomitable Scythians, overcome the numerous
Indians..."

Macedonia is oldest nation state in Europe! Let the name and glory live eternally!

Anyone heard of Vinko Priobojevic and what he had to say about Macedonians in 1525? He said ancinet Macedonians spoke the same language as Macedonians did in his time, 1525 (and it was not greek!!!)! :-)

Thracian's like Spartak, Orphey etc. were also Serbians.LOL

What is Serbian? There is no historical value attached to this name, except during a football games between Croatia and Serbia, where the one half of the the supporters screams: "Cigani" I wander why?

To Scipio Africanus
Quite correct comment about some
Fyromians
to Peter
you should be ashamed of yourself
stating the your former PM Kiro Gligorov accepted a bribe you are nothing but a fanatic who just opened
To Dr Cornelius
are you playing the devils advocate
with Peter the awefull he is suffering the poor soul.

@Dejan

Yah...Right!!!

When the old Bulgars reached the Adriatic sea, they zipped their trousers. You fool, take a look at the physiology of your own tennis players, or you ask your grand mother.

Can some of you explain, how do you translate a names like: Jane Sandanski or Goce Delchev in Greek or Serbian?

Also can someone answer the question if a Macedonian speaks his or her native language, how much of it will Greeks understand?

Greek Feta cheese = Ha...ha...ha Bactericum Bulgaricum

Peter - don't ruin a good case by excessive claims. No way do the Czechs speak Macedonian; their language is Western Slavonic using the Latin alphabet, and a Czech would have severe problems making him/herself understood in Skopje. Same is still true, though a bit less so, about Croatia and Slovenia - their language is South Slavonic, though they use the Latin alphabet. I would guess that their spoken language is about 50% the same as Macedonian, but no more than that, and the accent is quite different. (Having personally witnessed the difficulties that a Macedonian girl had in communicating with Adria Airlines (Slovenia) air hostesses, I can attest to this. I had to act as interpreter, using Russian !)

I am afraid that for once Peter is right, about Thrace and Macedonia north of Salonika being ethnically mixed Bulgarian / Turkish / Greek, even as recently as 1916. I have maps from an authoritative source (first world-war Germany !) to indicate this. In answer to the inevitable comments about this being an "Anglo-American Plot", I would answer that in 1916 (a) Britain was at war with Imperial Germany, (b) the Americans hadn't yet joined in, and (c) German map-making/cartography/ ethnic research had a deservedly high reputation. Just a pity that - much later - the Nazis abused this.

there are 500 millions macedonian speaking people in the world russians, serbians, bulgarians, croatian's, czech's and others and only 15 million speaking greeks you do the math. Read the bible, st.paul went to macedonia (which became the first christian country in europe) then southward to greece. Its in there or is that false too. Most of our saints are buried at the vatican, the pope invites our macedonian president no one else's every year to visit the saints tombs there, the saints that spread our language and christianity to these 500 million people.

the macedonians bask in there own glory no one else's. The greeks tried for years to invade and beat persia and they could't war after war. It took a barbarian (non greek) macedonia to beat and take over persia. The macedonians had to even fight greeks that sided with the persians along the way. The macedonian army was made up of 25'000 macedonians and 10'000 greeks that alexander had asked him to help or they could stay and rot in there jail cells if they didn't come along.

most of the books state that macedonia was a semi barbaric country meaning it was a mixture of macedonians and greek tribes just as was thrace, i can accept that fact that it was mixed but not fully owned otherwise they would write a part of greece but they don't. As for the saying that only greeks competed in the olympic games and because macedonians took part means they were greeks well romans took part in the olympic games too doesn't mean there greek, there still roman, you can't stop rulers of your land taking part just because there not greek, macedonians and romans took part because they wanted too, they just took over hellas, the greeks would have just kept there mouth shut.

What does Jorg mean about "basking in the glory of Greece" ? As Simeon posts rather more accurately, "Greece is the biggest disappointment of the European Union". So where is the glory there ? Personally, I shall never forget the way that Greece bent all the EU rules about Feta Cheese...

"We are just Slavs and we have nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians ". athens paid 5 million for him to say that comment thats why a few months later we tried to kill him. I have about 150 books on macedonia and some are over 100 years old, none are written by macedonians and some are by old historians reprints, i wish you could see them because you would not like whats in them. i have a book from 1896 by epoch called rise of the macedonian empire, look it up on the net and have a read if you can find it.

Of course it falsifies Macedonian history! Thats the only truth in it.

My roots are from Macedonia, half of my family and we are 100% Bulgarian.

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We are sick and tired of such useless debates. And why only “Macedonians” and Greek post opinions here. You’d better put in order your countries before looking to assimilate other peoples. Bulgarians don’t want anything from its neighbors but respect as they respect territorial integrity of Greece and “Macedonia”.

Don’t you see that you are full with sh.t, Greece being “the biggest disappointment of the EU”, Bulgaria being now the “black sheep” of the same union and “Macedonia” choked with economic and ethnical problems. You must first sort this issues out and then start talking how great you were, because now you are pathetic.

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I found out that the diaapora Fyromians did not learn the basic
English either in Canada nor in
Australia
What a pity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Apart from a schizoid nationalism
nothing else.

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FYROM _has to steal other nations history otherwise they won't have a nation. But it's not so bad if they don't, after all Switzerland is made up of German, Italian and French and isn't part of the EU or NATO. Basking in the glory of Greece is a feel good exercise for them at best, it soothes clinical depression in believing they "won" something.

I just quote what the former president of Fyrom said about the ethicity of Fyromanias. "We are just Slavs and we have nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonians ". Dear Fyromanians if you were a litle smart, Instead fo fighting with the Greece You should ask to join with Greece and become automatically member of Nato And E.E . But you are so nerrow minded and so brainwashed, that makes you look realy stupid. I have born in Pella Greece and I'm so proud to be Greek and be born where The Greatest Greek has born The Alexander the Great Greek . Remember Fyromanians if you can beat your eneny join with him . Zeto ELLAS=MAKEDONIA

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Dejan, don't try to push your so called ethnicity forward by degrading Greeks. Although we have Arvanites, Vlachs and Greeks from Anatolia in our nation we are still first and foremost GREEKS. If your argument is correct what does that make Cretans and other islanders?

Long live the liberation of Macedonia of 1913...

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Great!

The best thing to do with such a book is to just ignore it. How can someone believe that Bulgarian documents on this issue are impartial?!

Maybe we should check German documents from World War II to establish whether it was not really the Poles who attacked Germany in the first place....

Pathetic.

Hehe We have very nice physiology ...

Bulgaria has no history, they take Macedonian history and call it 'Bulgarian'.
Bulgarians are tatars from Asia, not even Europeans (look at their physiology)
As for "Greeks", their whole population is Roma, Vlachs, Pomaks, Turks, Macedonians.... no 'Greeks'.

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You should see all the books in Macedonia, claiming Bulgarian history as theirs, Greek history too.

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