L'hellénisme résulta ainsi d'un long processus d'agrégation de dizaines de peuples à une civilisation commune. (Hérodote): "La nation hellénique depuis ses origines a tojours fait usage d'une meme langue, à ce qu'il me semble. Partie de peu, à l'origine, elle s'est accrue d'une foule de peuples (Hérodotes utilise le mot 'éthné', qu'on peut aussi traduire par ethies), particulièrement par l'adjonction de nombreux Pélasges, puis de beaucoup d'autres barbares".

like I said at the outset...

And you?

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I disagree.

I agree

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I doubt US will show any interest in a youtube video... US are staying away from the name issue question, or else it would have been solved long ago.
Because US mediators have both interests in Greece and FYROM. On the one hand, they supported FYROM's perspective in the NATO, from the other, they respected Greece's veto: so at the final, that's a neutral strategy.
From what I saw, they don't exercize much pressure for a quick solution. They don't want to create interferences in the european matters.

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That youtube video is a simulation of the future. Territories will not stay the same in the coming decades. The balkanic map changed dramatically the last 30 years, and the evolution will not stop.

The youtube video is made with a clear configuration of the current events in Balkans and it sounds definitely like a prophecy.

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Have a look below to the consequences of Greek's Veto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtybsetZVFc&feature=related

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Maitre corbeau sur un arbre perche
tener en son bec un fromage.
Maitre renard par l'odeur aleche
lui tenait a peu pres ce language
.......
......
Fable de la Fontaine.

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no one said you slavs are greek, we can already tell that by the shape of your head. its just that you have ABSOLUTELY NO claim to the name. for example, its like your saying spartans arnt greek because 2000 years ago they were a seperate state, goverment, so on... macedon was a seperate state blah blah blah but in mordern day it belongs to greece as a whole. your lucky you got away with the land you did. i doubt they will let you get away with a whole stolen identity

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Dr Duck, please change your name to something more appropriate, if you don't support us.

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North Macedonia, NO WAY!

We are not part of Greece to be called a name similar to their province i.e north, south, east.

Greece changed the names of many towns such as Lerin was called Edessa, and Solun was renamed Thesaloniki, so I suggest that they rename themselves if they want an original name.

I suggest that we call ourselves Makedonia and be accepted for that name. Greek-Macedonians are different and the name is not the same as Macedonia, or even better Makedonia as we call ourselves.

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to a. Until your civility returns I shall not deem you worthy of offering you a capital letter or name. You should however watch your contradictions, as you state once that you don't hate then you do. Macedonians have an identity, and is recognized by all countries except Greece, even Albania does, so I suspect your are really a Greek. So my friend, I see you ended your blog with the Greek motto, Insult Scorn and Belittle!

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***Damn,there are "the rising star" and "the star is rising",!!!Well, i guess is the same person,if not then my comments/answers were for : the star is rising or "the dust is rising"***

To rising dust oops "star"_You can disagree with me in public,no problem but,deep in your heart i know that you agree 100% with me!As for hatred you mentioned,is not true i don't hate anyone personally,i hate liars and ppl who think they can get what is not theirs.If you take the truth as an insult why are you here then,(if you can stand the heat in the kitchen,get uot...)!You are such an ignorant,you think that writing my name only with a letter "a" you would insult me,NO WAY,i know who i am,i have my identity.Do you know who you are?Do you have an identity?If you knew who you are,we won't be here talking about that!As for Greeks and Albanians,don't worry about us,we are here for Milleniums living side by side,in good and bad times,we have much more in common with each other,that Unite us then divide us,like it or hate it,this is true,there are some ppl who think that Greece and Albanians are "enemies",i disagree with that,we may are not best friends,but for sure we are not enemies of each others!We have had a common past together and we have a common future together with Greece,of course i'm not excluding anyone here all Balkan nations have one common future the EU & NATO,so,as soon as some issues are settled in the Balkans,the better the future will be.PS. Did you find your Alexander the Slavinovski yet ?

to a. My, My. What contempt and hate is emitting fron your callous soul. Like the Greeks you foster the ideas of insults,scorn and ridicule. Why don't you try and debate with civility. As for presumptions, stop trying to put words into ones mouth. Being an Albanian, one might think you would understand a national consciousness. However, Albanian beware the Greeks who covet your land or shall I say theirs!!!

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To Rising Star,_ NO,i don't agree that 1400 years or 14 Billion years are enough,to claim a History which is not yours,History is NOT FOR SALE!!!However,i think you have the right to be there with your true identity (as slavic Fyrom-ians or what ever the new name will be).The Americans,Canadians and Australians,never claimed to be Native of those Continents/Countries,those countries have own History,the Native Americans( often called American Indians) ,Aborigines in AU have own History,Europeans came and stayed here they own the land...but never ever can "own or claim the History of the Natives!Again,no time is enough time,to claim the past/History.What is next for you Fyromians,in 500 years you may claim that George Washington was a slavic Fyromian ?If you study your slavic back ground,it is possible that some Russian Czar,King or other leader is directly connected to you !So,you can have the piece of land in which you live, but,you never can have the History of that land,before VII Century!PS.Don't be ignorant,write full name not only A,and A.

To A. and A. Since you both agree the slavs came into the area in around 600AD, don't you think that 1400 years is enough time for a people to gather a Macedonian consciousness! The Americans, Canadians and Australians managed to this in about 2 hundred years. Besides there is still debate on who the Macedonians were from 500BC to 600AD.

Duck Island WOW!! Your ego has really exploded! The low quality of debate you suggest, comes from the perpective of millions of citizens from all sides who believe in their heart that their opinions are right! The international forum you suggest would censure you for elitist bigotry!

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star is rising: A number of posts have been deleted and their authors banned for being rude, using caps lock and posting several times in a row under different names. That does no enhance the validity of anyone's point, nor does it mean that TSE is biased.

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Alexandra said:"Macedonians are GREEKS. We came from the same Fathers. The Slavs do not relate to us Greek Macedonians. Slavs arrived in the Balkans 600AD.
<<<4000BC, Alexander the great established Cities in Anatolia (Minor Asia.)>>> There were many Greek Cities with Greek Names. The People from the Bizantion in Kostantinople "!!!@ Alexandra,i agree with you 100 % slavs have nothing to do with Macedonia,far less with Alexander the Great.But,you 2 get the facts straight,Alex the Great lived in the 3 century BC,not 4000 BC...!!!In Fyrom there are less then 5 % real Macedonians,(they too thought assimilated)!To Fyrom-ians,if you are really looking for Alexander the Great,you are on the wrong spat/address,you should look in Russia somewhere for an Slavic Alexander the SLAVINOVIC/SLAVINOVSKI !!!PS.If someone give me a choice..."give up your Albanian identity or die,i will choose Death." I can not live with a fake identity i rather die!Slav-Fyromians, where is your pride?Why don't you try to find your real identity in Russia,you have nothing in common with Macedonia or Balkan(before VII century AD).What can you translate from any ancient Macedonian,Greek or Illyrian Archaeological findings/books with you slavic language ?NOTHING,SORRY !Look,no one is denying you to live where you are now,change the name(anyway is not yours/u have nothing to do with that name)and live in peace,otherwise you will be a very big loser.I think you can not win this one.

Macedonians are GREEKS. We came from the same Fathers. The Slavs do not relate to us Greek Macedonians. Slavs arrived in the Balkans 600AD.
4000BC, Alexander the great established Cities in Anatolia (Minor Asia.) There were many Greek Cities with Greek Names. The People from the Bizantion in Kostantinople
(Instanbul) fight against the Slavs who arrived in 600AD. The Bizantine people were Greeks. In 1946 Tito a Yugoslav General had interest in getting into Greek Macedonia, by changing the name of one of their state located next to the Ancient Macedonia, call it Vardarska Banovina, and name it Macedonia in 1946. He also converted their catholic Churches to Orthodox. However, none of the Orthodox churches recognize the Pseudomasedonian church as true orthodox because its purpose was to steel The Ancient Macedonia of Greece. Vardarska Banovina has changed its name several times through out the History. Yugoslavia contrilled by the Russians mostly and communistic propaganda is very common to them.
Propaganda has 8 rules to recognize. look it up. you will see the symptoms the FYOM safaring from.

Semantics, semantics, so you can have a German king who was part Greek well we had a Macedonian king who was part Epirote.This seems typical of you Greeks, when you start loseing you evoke the power of the church something like those religious terrorists. Besides, I guess you haven't read the bible lately,God has love for everybody. Greeks your ego is gettting ahead of you, there are many cultures that would disagree. P.S. the star is falling thanks for realizeing there were ancient Greeks and ancient Macedonians!

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Have you greeks ever seen the movie the greek wedding well there's a greek in it who goes around saying that every english word comes from the greek that my friends is the same logic you seem to follow and accordingly most of the world is greek as for olympia well didn't you greeks have a german king so I guess your really german

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hey Dr Truth you have no idea mate no idea. Macedonia is 4 the Macedonians Macedonia has never been part of Greek or Bulgerian History Macedonia means Tall somthing long in Vlahi the Vlah people are the true Macedonians of Alexander the Great and everybody knows that for a fact we where the fist to live on this land Macedonia is our home its not 4 the Greeks. if the greeks want to be macedonian they can we are not stopping you but you cant stop us being called macedonian long live macedonia.

Vlahi + Slavic = Macedonia

Greeks = nothing to do with macedonia and its history.

Vlahi Macedonians are the True Macedonians

how can the 16 ray sun = to this answer. Star of Vergina = The 12 Olympian gods icant = 12 Olympian gods because the star burst has 16 rays. the star bust rep the 16 Kings of the Kingdom of Macedon

insult all you want because the truth is hurting you. turn the other cheek

hmmm sticks and stones may break my bones but your poisonous pen has nil effect.

"Now the time has come for the Son of God to be worshiped" - Jesus on hearing that Greek pilgrims were coming to see Him.

You may try to take our history, you may try to steal our symbols and words, but you will NEVER take our Cross from us.....

KONSTANTINE EN TOUTO NIKA

If the Skopjans want to worship the Star of Vergina then let them, and no wonder why none of the other Churches recognise theirs because they worship Alexander and Philip. Looks like we are a millennium ahead of them.

Star of Vergina = The 12 Olympian gods

a Skopjan was posting "the star is rising"

but to him I say, the Cross out shines the star.

"Konstantine, en touto Nika!"

"Constantine, in hoc signo vinces!"

"Constantine, in this you shall win!"

sorry i spelt Queen wrong

Macedonia is 4 the Macedonians so who ever feels macedonian can be macedonian but you cant be Greek Macedonian or Bulgerian Macedonian just Macedonian Alexander the Great was a Macedonian he was King of Macedonia not the King of Macedonia of Greece sorry thats plain wrong your a king of what country you are from. like the Qween of Englang she Qween of the whole country not just one state of England.

Macedonia already exists in Greece.
Skopje is a capitaol of FYROM

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hey Macedonia is 4 the Macedonians

Greece or Greek or Hellenic never
existed in Alexander the Greats
time Macedonia has been around for
over 5000 years but the newley
fabricated state Greece was
created in the 1830s which only
makes 179 years old so how can
a country so young be related to
anything ancient the answer is
they cant.

to Aries - Bof ! Merde ! d'accord !

(in English - the French way of sorting out a disagreement. Recommended to Pella and all sorts of other people, qui de toute probablitite ne sont pas en mesure de s'exprimer en francais !

Dr Cornlius.
Moi aussi je le dis a plusieurs
reprises mais en Francais "Merde" en tous les cas changons de sujet
mon ami.
I too very often say the same thing but in french "Merde"
al by the way let's change subject
my friend.(English translation).

to Aries, fair point, but a ce je m'assois et je dis "Bof" a tout le monde. suivant l'habitude Belge.

(In English, this means that I sit down and say "Bof" in the Belgian way, to indicate "enough said / sod that / that's it."

Dr Cornelius
You are aware that the Seljuk Turks
stole everything from the Arabs
I perfectly understand why you avoid amswering comprehensible tres comprehensible.

Yes - the Polish information (and date) is perfectly genuine, though the Poles may remember it more than the Austrians do these days.

As regards la redaction francaise, corruption (including baksheesh)seems as bad in those countries never touched by the Ottoman Empire as those that were (such as Maroc ou Tunisie, par example.) I honestly don't know the explanation or the answer.

(One thing I do know however is that this site has no built-in spellchecker and no easy way of going back over spelling. so if you and I occasionally get our spellings wrong, it ill behoves anybody to criticise us !)

Dr CORNELIUS
I didn't know the Poles where involved thanks for the information.
Did you ponder on the whole
french part of the previous
post.
les deux nous on assez gonfler les c..illes,je pense.
c'est l'imperialisme economique
qui a causer "la Terreur" ansi
que le "fondamentalisme musulman
normal et extremiste" qu'ils s'en debrouilles a present.
Assez claire je crois.
merci.

Aries - fair point; obviously a lot originated with the Turks/Ottomans, though the French word "tabiche" actually comes from the (then) Belgian Congo. Means the same thing, though. I found insistence on "baksheesh" to be much worse in Egypt than in Turkey itself.

I might nonetheless draw everyone's attention to the historical fact that Turkish-besieged Vienna was thoroughly and finally liberated for Christianity (and the Austro-Hungarian Hapsburg Empire)by the Polish army in 1684, led by King Jan Sobieski. So Polish immigrants can occasionally be rather helpful.....

Dr Cornelius.
The bad practice of "bakshih"
and bribe as you may may well know has been inherited from the Turks to the Balkans for 500 years, it is the "les rejettons" i have already mentioned in a previous
post and the reason why among many
others many Europeans see as a
"hazard" and "nightmare" i mean
the oriental way to conclude affairs.
"A propos des chipotages je les cconnais tres biens mieux de ce tu
peu croire. C'est pour cela la
source de mon degout ce trouve a la racine de tous cela en tous ce est turque, ils ont baiser l'Europe
une fois jusqu'a Vienne ca suffit.
Ci les americains ont besoin d'eux
qu 'ils en fasses leur prochain
Etat federale"
Merci beaucoup.

my greek friend it seems parrots are also found in greece

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why are you greeks so belligerent and insulting are you afraid the world doesn't love you MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS GREECE FOR THE GREEKS

and you Skopjans had no idea of its existence or meaning (it seems you still dont understand its symbolism of the Greek gods) before the Greeks discovered it in Greek territory.

What goes up must come down....I'm afraid now that the Albanians have set a deadline for NATO/EU, your star is falling.

Word of advise, pick your enemies more wisely

to dr cornelius if trademarking the star of vergina had to be done in 1993 and it was only discovered in 1978 the the greeks(modern) had no idea of it's symbolism and existence before that which implies it's Macedonian and to repeat a great statesman MACEDONIA FOR MACEDONIANS (Gladstone)

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Why some people try to reinvent
the wheel.

The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?"

to my imitator - don't post unless you can spell (a) English and (b) German correctly. All you need is a dictionary or two and a bit of intelligence, obviously lacking in your case.

Authentication code (please translate): "parasykite savo pavarde", and don't try a Greek dictionary as it ain't Greek, though it looks like it.

There's a spelling error in the authentication code, and I didn post the last message about stupid territorial claims from either the Greek or Macedonian sides.

New authentication code: Ich bin eine Schlampe (and also tell us what this means in English !)

There's a spelling error in the authentication code, and I didn't post the last message about stupid territorial claims from either the Greek or Macedonian sides.

New authentication code: w szczebrzeszynie chrzascz brzmi w trczinie (and also tell us what this means in English !)

Greeks are not Macedonians according to the UN and should thus give up this silly name dispute otherwise the Greek side risks justifying the Republic of Macedonia's territorial claims on the Greek region of Macedonia





Authentication code: rzeczpospolita

to The Star Is Rising - trade-marking the Star of Vergina under WTO rules, by the Greek government in 1993(?) was actually a very smart move by the Greeks, and to be applauded.

The Paris Convention of 1883 would have covered all emblems and trademarks current before then under so-called "grandfather rights". But since the Star of Vergina was only discovered in 1978, "grandfather rights" did not apply, and WTO registration was necessary to protect it. Which the Greeks duly did, and wisely. (If the Macedonians had been quick off the mark, and had registered it themselves prior to 1993, we would have had a very interesting situation indeed !)

Authentication: wrzeszcz

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A few errors have crept into Dr Truth's memorable contributions.

Firstly, DNA wasn't even "invented" in the 1930s/40s in the time of Hitler.

Secondly, some of the information contained in DNA is already known in conventional "blood group" information, both at individual and at national level, as blood groups vary by nationality and ethnic origin. In Northern Europe all this information is in the public domain - is it so in Greece ? Somehow I think it might not be, but I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Thirdly, academicians are not politicians (or if they are, they tend to be very bad ones ! And vice-versa).

Fourthly, "peer group review" is confined to academia and is frequently an unconstructive process involving the settling of old scores. The commercial world sensibly ignores this and uses patents instead !

Authentication code: rzeczpospolita

300 of the worlds most famouse historians, from universities such as, Stanford, Oxford , Cambridge , Yale, Vassar, College de France and hundreds of others in the United States and Europe have all stated that the ancient macedons where Greeks.

They also appeal to Fyrom to stop with their political and historical propaganda.

Read their letter in

w w w macedonia-evidence . org

300 of the worlds most famouse historians, from universities such as, Stanford, Oxford , Cambridge , Yale, Vassar, College de France and hundreds of others in the United States and Europe have all stated that the ancient macedons where Greeks.

They also appeal to Fyrom to stop with their political and historical propaganda.

Read their letter in

w w w macedonia-evidence . org

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trademarks are we going corparate now i guess the italians should sue for their name (greek) they call hellas as for the lion i agree it is also another good symbol and tell me why you greeks(that's seem what you moderns like to call yourselfs) revert to childish name calling and insults to get your point across

Speaking as a doctor, Pelia, are you "on" something ? If so, you would be well advised to come off whatever drug you are taking very quickly, for the sake of your own health.

There is no linguistic connection between "FYROM" and the English word "from" at all. As I think I pointed out earlier, the Macedonians have had some success in international trade fairs (notably the London International Wine Fair earlier this month) by labelling their wine as "Fyrom" (good brand name - sells well!) and by publicising their country as "fyr MACEDONIA" (which is within the UN rules). Again, this works very well commercially.

Can't easily see how Greece can either object or reciprocate - but a pity that at the London Wine Fair most of the publicity material (and the wine bottle labels) were in the Greek alphabet. I can read this, but thousands cannot. Not good marketing at all. Sorry, Greece - another Own Goal.

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to HaHa and Star is...I think you're both "pushing an open door" here. Both Aries and I have argued strongly that Macedonia should abandon any attempt to use the Star of Vergina, which (as you say) was discovered in Greece and (even more relevantly) was trademark-protected by Greece in the WTO in the early 1990s.

I have been advocating that Macedonia reverts to the "symbol" that it DOES own, namely the two-tailed lion (first recorded in 1595), which poses no problem to Greece, as far as I know. This lion is very close to the Czech symbol, but the Czechs didn't object when they and the Macedonians both used it 1919-1945, and I doubt they will now.

As regards the "Hellenic Republic" or the "Republic of Greece", this depends very much upon which language it is being translated into. "La republique hellenique" goes fine in French, but in Polish it would be "Rzeczpospolita Grecka". There is no Polish word for "Hellenic", although (interestingly) Polish still uses mediaeval Latin place names such as "Mediolanum" for Milan, and "Noremburga" for Nurnburg. As regards Russian, the same as in Polish. Sorry, but nobody can enforce the way that foreigners refer to your country !

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Star of Vergina was found in Macedonia (Greece), not FYROM/Pseudo-Macedonia. Can't be a symbol they can use. Not to mention it is now internationally trademarked. So, dream on!

Actually "star", Greece is another official name. The true and official name is "The Hellenic Republic", where Hellas is for short. So if you are claiming to out-scholar the scholars, it would be to your benefit to make sure you know your facts. Never has there been a "Republic of Greece".

I agree with Aries; the Book of Revelation is highly symbolic (except when one gets on to the Seventh Seal - det Sjunde Inseglet - where Ingmar Bergman made one of the best films of all time. In Swedish, of course.)

As regards the Macedonian emblem, I have made no secret of my own preference for Macedonia to go back to its pre-1945 emblem of the Lion With Two Tails, which dates back in Macedonian use to 1595 (really), and to avoid all this contraversy with the Star of Vergina.

That said, a look at the official Macedonian website yesterday (http://www.vlada.mk) revealed rather to my surprise that the Macedonian government is still using the "old" emblem dating from Communist days, showing Heroic Sheaves of Corn, a Heroic Mountain, a Heroic sunrise (surely not Vergina ?), and a very Heroic Red Star on top. Interesting...

To "star is rising"
According to you
Since everything is temporary
why steal in the frist place
Symbols are there to remind us
the ideas and facts of the past
do no mess up religion "The Apocalypse" is the most Cryptic document of Christianity, all of it
is nothing else but Symbolism.

,

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What goes up must come down. Every star eventually extinguishes. Even the Apocalypse or Revelation the Bible states " and so the stars shall fall from the heavens"

Perhaps you should steal another national symbol that does not symbolize something that is only temporary.

"All empires fall, countries come and go"

talk about names the italians gave greece it's name the ancients knew it as hellas so give it up on macedonia unless you straighten your name first p.s. you so called scholars should have known that

T.J. Winnifrith, British scholar:

"Macedonia was also an attempt at a multicultural society. Here the fragments are just about holding together, although the cement that binds them is an unreliable mixture of propaganda and myth. The Macedonian language has been created, some rather misty history involving Tsar Samuel, probably a Bulgarian, and Alexander the Great, certainly a Greek, has been invented, and the name Macedonia has been adopted." ...



..."Do we destroy these myths or live with them? Apparently these radical Slavic factions decided to live with their myths and lies for the constant amusement of the rest of the world!"

("Shattered Eagles, Balkan Fragments", Duckworth, 1995)

There is a very good quote on one of the many UN websites (clue to "van Puppet" - key UN and Macedonia into Google and you will be amazed by what you get !) which says:

"Greek intransigence on linking a present-day boundary spat with Macedonia with a state last known in 300 BC, makes Serbia's insistence on linkage with the Battle of Kosovo in 1361 seem very reasonable by comparison."

You can look this quote up yourself - it's easy to Google. And I don't think it was written by a Serb.

to van Puppet, please - I implore you - learn how to use Google properly. Then you will have less refuge for your illusions.

Secondly - look at the proceedings of the UN Security Council - those at are in the public domain, and discover how fragile the French reluctance "pour exprimer une voix a l'unanimite" (i.e. to maintain its vote against Macedonia) actually is. It probably depends upon some gas or energy deal somewhere !

Thirdly, there are enough books by now dealing with the "mokre dyela" (Russian word= 'wet doings' = civilian casualties and fatalities) in northern Greece between 1944 and 1948, that you only have to got into any public library in Western Europe to read quite a lot about it. David Holden's book "Greece Without Columns" is a very good start; a pity he got murdered whilst completing its sequel. (I wonder by who, but this was the "Greece of the Colonels" who employed people capable of rewriting history.

"Mokre dyela" indeed .... I hope you now see my point about Greece's bloody 1944-48 history.

Read the interim accord. No mention of Republic of Macedonia. Only FYROM. Since then, there has been no mention on any official UN document of Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, you have once again rendered your statement useless.

Oh and I wonder what you mean about what REALLY went on in Greece. Let me guess. Your going to throw another useless analogy our way? Or are you going to state something that "may/may not" hjave happened, but to only a small group. Or will you go on and on about how FYROMians are descendants of Alexander the Great and base it off some ridiculous DNA scam? Go ahead. The world has heard it all. Your pathetic excuses and more directly your analogies have been heard a world over. There has been nothing done. Oh and might I mention, the majority of those 120 countries you stated, only recognized bilaterally under the condition of a final settlement to the dispute. So this means nothing. They just used it as a bargaining chip to some FYROMian sellout. So your one-track argument means nothing in the rest of the world outside the Gruevski-Slavic world. If you dont beleive me, how about you ask around outside of your pathetic little inner circle that chants solun 2013.

to Dr Gruevski -

(1)since my recent retirement I no longer see "live" UN documents. But I would refer you to the Vance/Owen reports and draft settlement of 1995. To summarise: "FYROM" is the provisional UN name from 1992(standing for Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"), and "Republic of Macedonia" (or Republika Makedonija) is the "constitutional name" according to the Republic's UN-model constitution. So far the "constitutional name" has been approved by 120 of the UN's 193 sovereign states (193 can expand, depending whom you talk to, but it is the "core" UN population. ) More pertinently, 4 out of the 5 UN Security Council Permanent Members have recognised the "Republic of Macedonia" name (that is: US, UK, Russia, and China. Only France does not yet recognise it - now there's a thought ! I wonder what 'quid pro quo' France wants ?) Anyway, once the Security Council expresses a unanimous (5 out of 5) view, the "pass is sold" and a vote in the General Assembly would follow to adopt the "constitutional name" as the official name. It's only a matter of time.

So full international recognition of the "constitutional name" by all UN states - not least by the five "big players" - will happen sooner rather than later. Sorry, but those are the facts (and look up the various UN websites if you don't believe me.)

Incidentally, the "FYROM" formula has its restrictions too. It is not permitted, as some Greek interests do, to put full stops/periods in between the letters (as in "F.Y.R.O.M") But it is seemingly permitted to put the letters in different-size typefonts ( can't do it on this site) so that "fyr" comes out very small and "Macedonia" comes out very large. This was done at this year's International Wine Exhibition in London to great effect. Not sure what Vance and Owen would make of that, but it seemed to work in dragging in the crowds onto the Macedonian stand.

Finally, you ask why I have a "hatred" for Greeks. I have no such hatred - I even speak (some !) Greek - but I do ask myself how many guilty consciences there are in northern Greece about what REALLY went on in 1944-48.....

After reading the posts on this web site, I think we are all waiting for some answers from the "know-it-all" Cornelius.

I agree with you - Ben's name is a prank indeed, but I think it was meant to you.

Anyhow, we are waiting for you to find a United Nations document recognizing FYROM as Republic of Macedonia. I do not think you will be success. Because this does not exist in UN. FYROM entered under the interim accord in all international organizations under FYROM. Only bilateral some countries recognize as their constitutional name.

I also agree with enough ridiculous analogies and comparisons. Otherwise you have some pretty fantastic comments on here, but as of late, or if anyone else is posting under your handle, they have been ridiculous at best.

Why the hatred for Greeks anyhow?

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FIND ONE OFFICIAL UN DOCUMENT REFERENCING FYROM AS ROM. THE INTERIM AGREEMENT DOES NOT SAY THIS EITHER. FYROM IS A UN RECOGNIZED NATION. ROM ONLY IS RECOGNIZED BILATERALLY, TEMPORARILY, UNTIL THE DISPUTE SETTLES.

to TreueMakedonia -

Yes, I am well aware that Republika Makedonija is a UN sovereign state, but I was trying to be polite to your side by calling it "FYROM" (a very successful wine brand-name in the UK by the way, sourced entirely by wines from Makedonija. Thanks, Greece, for the free marketing advantage !)

Of course I have visited your benighted country - I drove through it twice north-south and then south-north on a motorcycle more than a few years ago, and I can speak highly of the medical facilities available in the State Polyclinic in Titov Veles. So don't patronise me by claiming that I have never been there, as I indisputably have (and I still bear the scars to prove it, though - as I say - Jugoslav medical care was excellent.)

Macedonia is not a UN recognized country. FYROM is so I suggest you get your facts straight. And here's something else for you. The balkans are not Germany. Your comparisons mean absolutely nothing. Another point. You must never have visited Macedonia, Greece for your illogical comment on ethnicity from 1913 onwards. I am from this region. I am a true Macedonian. My family has been in this region for generations, as is some of the buildings we own, which my ancestors built themselves. My family is from this region. Have you visited? Sure there are minorities, but the "fabrication" that you support is illogical and based off other people's theories. A person writing in Germany is not going to convince me my friend. My own eyes and ears do the convincing. Until then, reserve your comments on Macedonia, Greece. Because you are sounding more and more pathetic in your statements. Enough about German history, it does not apply in this situation. Lastly, your comment about international relations should be forwarded and directed to the FYROMian government, they seem to know fabrication quite well. As far as my previous statement about FYROM being a fabrication, well maybe it came out wrong, but here is my clarification. FYROM is a sovereign country, with its own people and history. The fabrication and the history they claim lies from the name. So do not preach to me Dr Cornelius aout international relations. Instead I suggest you spend your time focusing on your own people and setting them straight. Or are you another foolish beleiver of solun 2013? Go ahead, throw a German statement my way again.

TO all readers: notice how there never is an answer from dr. cornelius. instead there is only a german analogy, which on the surface may seem like it makes sense, but the truth is, it just never compares. It only contrasts.

FYI - You still never answered my question. No worries. I understand. Look up your german enclyclopedia and your post 1995 Pseudo-Macedonian enclyclopedia and try to compare the two and spit out a useless analogy again. I think I am done here Sofia Echo. Thanks!

Final point to TrueMacedonia - you claim that there are more Greek Macedonians than there are "FYROM" Macedonians, therefore "might=right"

This is a barbaric and crude method of settling international political differences, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Let me just take one example (but there are many!) When Germany reunified in 1990, there were 10 million East Germans and 40 million West Germans. But they unified their divided country / Heimatland / Fatherland etc. on equal terms. Possibly they got the currency re-unification a bit wrong, as 1 OstMark was never equal to 1 WestMark (on the black market the ratio was 10 to 1) But most of the rest of it they got right, and East German Angela Merkel is now Chancellor of a United Germany.

This is not achieved by stupid and patronising comments about sovereign states being a "pure fabrication", even though there were many who said this in the 1970s and 1980s about East Germany.

I do recommend that you take a course in practical International relations before you presume to post again on this or on any other wite.

With respect to TrueMacedonia, I think you are stretching "deductive" logic too far. Firstly, politics is its own reality. Secondly, it tends to govern how things are done (rightly or wrongly, but it does.) Thirdly, you cannot validly argue from this that Macedonia (FYROM) is a "fabrication". It may be an incovenience, sure, but it is a UN-recognised sovereign country and as such cannot be a "fabrication" except to those excessively prone to wishful thinking. And it does have its own history, as I have discovered, though not a history that either its own government or the Greeks are willing to admit. As for "who is a true Macedonian", I suggest you look at ethnicity figures for the (Greek) province of Macedonia from 1913 onwards - there are some very good and objective German sources, and then re-phrase your comments. I shall reserve my final point until a later posting.

So then we are all in agreement (which is also clearly obvious) that politics is not reality. With that said, FYROM is a political institution. The reality is that it is not based on either reality nor history. Hence, it is a pure fabrication. The country and people may exist, but the heritage it assumes, via a name, is all fabrication.

Allow me bring forth another question. If FYROM's people are outnumbered by Greece's (true) Macedonians, how can they claim exclusivity? There are more Greek (true) Macedonians then there are "FYROMians".

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Can someone explain to me why would a government bring out maps, stamps and bank notes showing Thessaloniki as part of another country. Also if univeristy educators who specialise in history for the said period, state that Macedon/Macedonia was a Greek City state, why does a government of another country want to rewrite the history books? Sounds like brainwashing to me, no wonder the current generation have no idea.

TrueMacedonia - one area where I DO agree with you is replacing all those Venetian-origin places names in Cyprus with their correct Greek ones, so Limassol becomes Lemesis, Nicosia becomes Leukosia, and so on. (Not sure about Famagusta - that may be the original Greek name, as also may be the case with Larnaca.)

The Gold Medal for name changes is won rather further north - the city of four Ks. Its four names are: Kaliningrad (Russian), Konigsberg (German), Krolowiec (Polish), and Karalaucius (Lithuanian). Currently Russian, it was German before 1945, and the Lithaunians claim it before 1414 (The Lithuanians have in my view quite a good case, as the old Prussian language was Baltic - like Lithuanian - and not Teutonic.) The Poles don't claim it, but just say they have an interest !

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to TrueMacedonia - if you are asking me why the northern Macedonians refer to "Solun" rather than "Salonika" or "Thessaloniki", then the short answer is that I don't know. Maybe it's easier to say - after all, in most Slav languages it would decline and in so doing lengthen the word: Nominative/Genitive/Accusative/Dative/Instrumental cases (Solun / Soluna/Solunem/Solunovi/Solunie) - I'm putting on Russian or Polish case-endings as I don't know the local ones, but the logic is exactly the same.)

Beyond that, as a cynical old East German history professor told me (he subsequently went on to become an advisor to Chancellor Angela Merkel in a re-united Germany, so he got something right): "History is as defined in the mind of whoever last wrote the history books." So, no absolutes. only relatives.

Aries - I accept your argument, but I think you have omitted a "not" somewhere (like in "all the Mediterranean was of Greek ethnicity" ??)

True, Salonika or Salonica is acceptable by most Greeks today. Although this is a Western Europe/US name for the city, its true name is still Thessaloniki. Much the same in Cyprus. Nicosia is the Western name, but locals know it as Leukosia. Let add something further to this question, which I hope you will answer.

Thessaloniki was the name the ancient Macedonians called the city. No side can dispute this. FYROM claims Alexander as their hero. (I will not add how I feel about this, but I'm sure you already know). FYROM pays tribute to him and shows him respect. Why do they avoid using the names that he used. The very name of his half-sister. If they are truly descendants, they would respect their ancient history. How can it be possible modern day Greeks do this, and FYROMians dont? Why are they not taught proper history in their schools if this is the case? If they claim to be descendants, then shouldnt they follow the same Hellenic ideals the ancient Macedonians had - Which, allow me to add, are Greek?

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Everything is relative regarding this point of view, but the facts remain facts "the grek language was the lingua franca is most of the mediterrenean" of course that does mean that all of the mediterrenmean was of greek ethnicity. The battle of Issus and
Granicus ocurred in a specific time and space in space-time continumm, so did Julius Caesars
Bello Gallico so did the Sacking of Constantinople by the Crusades
so did the Teutonic Knights battles
so did WW i and WW ii
the only thing that IS THE INTERPRETATION assigned to these
facts this interpretation often leadsto falsifications of the incentives originally attributed
to the facts
that is "revisionism" and alas
the only cause of "l'histoire
se repete" .
in Greek legislation there is a special clause stating "AΓΝΟΙΑ ΝΟΜΟΥ ΔΕΝ ΣΥΓΧΩΡΕΙΤΑΙ" ignorance of the law is prohibited.

to True Macedonia - well, the short answer is that prior to 315 BC it wasn't there. The longer answer is to call the place "Salonika / Salonica" which is accepted international usage, even amongst some Greeks. (I don't know what it is in Illyrian/Albanian, but I'm sure there is a name which someone will rudely tell me about very shortly.)

Is this helpful ? It was meant to be.

Dr Cornelius, I agree this post has now taken a different direction, for better or for worse. To get back on topic, please answer a question of mine.

If people of FYROM are truly descendants of ancient Macedonians, why don't they call Thessaloniki by the very name their ancestor's did, instead they call the city Solun? Please do not give a definition of the name Thessaloniki.

to TrueMacedonia - well, yes, I take your point and I don't disagree with anything you say. But we are getting into fairly academic territory here, which (without being patronising) is not helpful for "hoi polloi" (or "oi polloi", depending which convention is being used for transcribing Ancient Greek. I have no intention of being drawn into THAT debate again.)

So we have to give our respective followers a clear and intellectually honest "historical" message, without involving them in academic minutiae. What do you propose ?

Acceptable answer, but I still disagree. Today, a fine line exists between media and history. Spin doctors are practicing media/journalism. "History" can only be revised for individual benefit, but this of course does not mean it is history. The only true history would be the practice by and between those involved, not the story they are revising.

to TrueMacedonia - yes, these days they call them "spin doctors", and they can rewrite history in the twinkling of an eye. Oh for the certainties (and I never thought I would say this) of Marxism-Leninism and the Dialectical Approach to History, within which there is Only One Correct Version. Alas, it is not so.

For a non-Macedonian example, just look at recent histories of the 1970-1998 Irish Troubles, as written from respectively a Catholic/Nationalist and a Protestant/Unionist standpoint. One would hardly realise they are talinking about the same place and the same era, except for some of the place names being in common (not all - Derry to some, Londonderry to others, and don't say the wrong one in the wrong pub, or you won't come out alive.)

So I stand by my view that all history is relative, and that much depends upon who wrote it for which audience. (As I argued to my History tutor in Cambridge, UK in the 1960s, and to my surprise they gave me a First !)

I am not criticizing your efforts in your career for feeding your family. However, History cannot be rewritten my friend. It has been recorded and documented. I'm sure your fellow scholars worldwide will disagree with your statement. What we are doing here today, cannot be changed by those tomorrow. They can only say the story differently.

to True Macedonia (again) - sorry to have a second bite at the cherry, but you cannot be serious in saying that "history has been recorded", and therefore cannot be re-written. I myself spent three months at the University of Leipzig (in DDR days) in the "Department of Historical Re-writing", re-editing historical events rather drastically to give them a Marxist-Leninist slant, and then rather longer in the Jagellonian University of Krakow (Unywersyete Jagellonski w Krakowie) re-editing Silesian history to "restore its Polish perspective" (i.e. edit out anything relating to the Germans except their occasional atrocities and drunken riots.) So please fo not patronise me by saying that "history cannot be re-written"; I can assure you that it can. And Dick Cheney is doing it in the good ole' USA even as we read these posts.

to TrueMacedonia : I take your point about Hellenic culture, but nowhere in the Gospels and Epistles (which can be quite lengthy but are certainly goegraphically accurate for the time) is there any record of St Paul either participating in (or spectating at) the Olympic Games.
Please prove me wrong.

As for the Illyrians, they clearly pre-dated the Slavs in Macedonia by some centuries, Shakespeare refers to them by name, so they have their place in history too. They also are prodigious fighters (as exemplified by today's Albanians) and their idea of a blood-feud leaves everybody else standing. So I do not think they should be ignored, even if their presence is inconvenient to some peoples' theories.

Dr Cornelius, I myself agree that language does not prove ethnicity, however, the ancient Macedonians were not just Greek speaking people, but rather a Hellenic civilization that practiced and spread Hellenic ideals, religion, customs, values and traditions. This is not something (referring to your analogy) that St. Paul did. It may be inconvenient for you that they didnt spread Illyrian ideals, only Greek. What is a fact, and recorded, is that they took part in the Olympic games, which only Greeks could do. So please keep your theories at bay. I understand your burning desire to state what may seem the obvious amongst your people, but history hasbeen recorded, and theories and propaganda cannot and will not change this. If you still don't beleive this, then maybe you will be enlightened by the fact that classic scholars worldwide have organized efforts to stop the distortion of history, one that you are supporting with fanatical, nationalistic theories. If you only knew how foolish and immaterial your statements sound/are. I also agree with a previous post that I lost respect for your postings after the Illyrian one.

to TrueMacedonia - yes, you are right that much of the Mediterranean coastline used Greek as a working language or 'lingua franca' in Classical times, but this does NOT mean that the people concerned were ethnically Greek. The best-known example of all - St Paul - clearly was bilingual in Greek (otherwise he could not have got away with preaching in the Athens Agora !), but he was ethnically and genetically Hebrew/Jewish (well, he said he was in the Epistles, anyway !)

So - in short - use of a particular language does not convey ethnicity. In this context my earlier example of Belgium as a present-day analogy of bilingualism not indicating ethnicity is very relevant indeed, inconvenient though it may be to some.

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Brussels, the French or any other ethnicity have nothing to do with this issue, so they cannot be used comparatively. Most of the known "Meditteranean" world was Greek speaking at the time because of the vast culture that flourished and influenced from the region. However, ancient Macedonia was part of the core region and was not just Greek speaking. Instead they were a Hellenic civilization. They shared culture, religion, language, traditions, customs, ideals, etc... much the same as the rest of the Hellenic civilizations. They took part in the Olympic games, which only Greek (Hellenic) civilizations could compete in. Doesn't sound Illyrian or Slavic to me either. Sound spurely Greek (Hellenic).

The post below... notice the "I think". No hardcore facts, just opinion.

Fact: Find me an "illyrian" inscription on any ancient Greek Macedonian artifact. Then the world will call them of Illyrian root. Until then, all we see is Greek, so ancient Macedonians were Greek. Simple to distort history...in your own minds. However, history has been written and cannot be changed.

DR Cornelius, you just lost all respect I had for some of your posts. At times your views seemed blurred, but the one below was just purely fanatical in the sense that you yourself are a propagndist. If you were truly posting with educated answers, you would have not posted such a foolish statement.

Ancient Macedonians were Greek. Modern FYROMians, and Modern Macedonians (Greek) share the modern heritage. This is my opinion, but I am not stating it as fact.

I think you will all find that the Macedonian population in BC500-AD500 was probably Illyrian; it certainly wasn't Slav, but there is little evidence (apart from Heroic Assertions) that it was Greek either. It might have been predominantly Greek-speaking, but that isn't the same thing. (Just ask any native inhabitant of Brussels where their ancestry lies: they will answer you (in French) that their forbears were Flemish. And, between themselves, they will speak Flemish (or "Bruxellois", which is 75% Flemish and 25% French) to each other.

Allez une fois, mijnheer

FYROM president Mr Kiro Gligorov confirmed that they are not related to the ancient Macedonians who are Greek:"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century AD.. we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians"(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe 26-2-1992 p35)

"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author"
In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)

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Ristov is a plumber in Canada who is part of the fanatical Skopjan diaspora.

My 10 year old can write a report with references and at the same time play around with the words for his advantage

PS - Ristov doesnt sound like a Macedonian name (ie philip, Alexander, Olympias, Thessaloniki and your mom)

A guy called risto stefov has very compelling arguements,best of all he states references for his arguements,unlike most of his opponents.
so far his arguement is the most compelling.

to Ovchar od Lerin (shouldn't it be "od Lerina" ?) I think "Britain" is how it is actually spelled, not "Briton". And I think you have mis-spelled your password too. It should be:
"YEDEN DEN YEST SEGODNIA" ("One day is now/today") OK - Sedognia is pronounced 'Sevondia', but that's a detail.

S uvazheniem

Doktor Kornelius Vassilovich Helsinga

You fools, the Republic of Macedonia shall conquer Aegean Macedonia and make Briton apologise for dividing up Macedonia!

Dr Cornelius, stop hiding under your wife's skirt (that's right, Peter is back hahahaha) YOu will bow down to United Macedonia in 2013!

The Ovchar od Skopje

I believe you should be watching your own flock in Vadar as the Albanians are proving to be more than difficult. After all we wouldnt want Skopje absorbed into Greater Albania or the emergence of another Albania state called the Republic of Illyria...do we?

And oh, Turkey will be of no use to you unless you all plan to convert to Islam b/c they will support their Muslim commonality over your so-called alliance

and oh, what is lerin? do you mean Lenin?

Skopje for Albanians, Macedonia for Greeks!

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No, JohnJo, I'me not getting angry. I just don't like neo-fascist views such as you are expressing, and which give Britain a poor image abroad.

Mind you, in Transyvlania we have a way of dealing with such people. We leave them - drunk - in graveyards overnight with their throats exposed. By morning they will all have departed and joined the ranks of the Undead. Simple, really, once one has the knack / l'astuce.

peace between Greece and Macedonia

No i hate football, but you are getting angry this i understand its not your fault you feel inferior talking to an Englishman.

Oh dear, JohnJo. you sound like the worst sort of British fascist - sorry - voter for the BNP ("British National Party" to others of our audience in more civilised countries than England.) Do you by any chance support Millwall (translation: England's most thuggish band of football supporters. As the Poles say with masterly understatement " niekulturalne ludzi" - uncultured people.)

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Notice, how even an ancient Macedonian never said "victory over the Greeks" when he reffered to winning the battle in Thessaly, but instead he says victory over the Thessalians. This is because, as Macedonia was, they were all ancient Greek city states. So the myth presented on this forum and by most Slav-Macedonians propagandist hyper-bloggers is a true falsification of history. During the time, only city-states existed. The Athenians went to war many times with the Spartans. This was never called "civil war" because they were Greeks. Same was the Macedonians.

On an similar note regarding the dispute, and probably the only point that I agree with Cornelius, is that you shall be allowed to be called any name you want to be called. However, this is the difficulty. You have brought other elements into this dispute that do not belong. Territorial claims against Greek lands, propaganda and the change of history simply loses your case to the world. Ancient Macedonian history belongs to the Greeks. Modern Macedonian history belongs to both Greeks and FYROM since they choose to be named this. Greece long had a province name Macedonia, and later came a country with the same name. This is a shared Modern Macedonian history and both sides have to understand this. A compromise name with a geographic qualifier is not bad at all. Afterall, both countries cannot claim exclusivity to the name today, but the history of ancient Macedonia is exclusive to Greece.

Oh, that's easy!

A) Thessaloniki was born around 342 BC; to commemorate the birth of his daughter, which fell on the same day as the armies of Macedon won a significant battle in Thessaly, King Philip is said to have proclaimed, "Let her be called victory in Thessaly". In the Greek language her name is made up of two words Thessaly and niki, that translates into 'victory over the Thessalians'.

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Here is a little bit of trivia for those who claim they know history (my guess is that even DR Cornelius wont answer this)...

What was Alexander the Great's half-sister named? King Kassandros founded a city after her meaning "victory over the thessalians".

A. Thessaloniki
B. Solun
C. None of the Above


-------------
Cheat Sheet...
Both the city and the Greek Princess were called this since ancient times. Only a true Macedonian would continue to call it by what his/her ancestors did.

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Macedonia exists and always has existed.Macedonia has its own language, own History!This is absurd to think that another Country can step in and claim something that isnt theirs in the first place!NEVER HAS BEEN!SHAME on the Greeks. In this day and age they back to barbaric measures!Who do they think they are!Macedonia was DIVIDED inthe year 1912!GREECE, Bulgaria. Albania and Serbia took parts! Then in the year 1948 the GREEKS invaded MACEDONIAN territories! Made-FORCED the MACEDONIANS to change their identity altogether! AND NOW THE WANT TO CHANGE OUR NAME! NEVER!!!NOT IN A MILLION YEARS!!!!!

Funny how everyone is discussing about my national feelings.
What is this? What kind of human rights does the EU and America support ???
I'm not trying to steel anyone's history especially not the one someone adopted for themselves.
I don't want any claim on Greek soil I just want to be recognized as Macedonian and if there are people in northern Greece who feel the same way, they should be allowed.

Why is it that a nation that has been brainwashed insists that they are right. We all know that if it wasn't for the Greeks standing up to invaders the world be a poorer place to live in. So again new invaders are trying to conquer

Reality = GREATER ALBANIA

Skopje is next

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Funny how spell checker does not recognise solun but recognises Thessaloniki....maybe because solun does not exist!

PS - Israel despises muslim countries so you can kiss goodbye Turkey and your US support :)

Greece is losing. America, Turkey and Israel back our history, not Greece's. Greece will lose like it lost Cyprus, Imir, Southern Albania.
America dictates and Israel dictates America. America has recognised Macedonia, soon we will make claims on Solun and all Greece will do is complain, that is why they always lose.

Very true, greece is a mixture of turks, albanians, vlachs etc.

However, if a DNA study was done in the Republic of Macedonia then it would show that the Macedonians are related about 90% to the ancient Macedonians

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The GREEK APARTIED of Macedonians within Greece's borders must stop.

This PURE nation of "Greeks" is but a mixture of Turks, Albanians, Vlachs, and of course Macedonians...

An INTERNATIONALLY MONITORED CENSUS will set the record straight...or are you afraid that the TRUTH will come out...

EDEN DEN E SEGA

The Ovchar is watching...how many sheep do you count?

'Greek' history. When was the first use of the name 'Greece'? History has its place, learn from it. Be prepared for the future. Enough with this thread.

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained .

This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained .

Aegean Macedonia and Solun was stolen from us by the greeks, that is why we claim them as our because they belong to us! As long as countries call us Macedonia then we will continue to claim Aegean Macedonia

The Province of Macedonia has a right to be called Macedonia and the Greek inhabitants as Macedonians. No nation has the right to take away our Macedonian identity not even Skopje.

Long live the Province of Macedonia, and Macedonia for all Greeks

Skopje for Albanians and Bulgarians

The reality is that as long as the Province of Macedonia and Thessaloniki exists outside of Skopjan territory then they have no justification to call themselves "Macedonian". The whole damn universe may call you "Macedonia" but with out the territories of ancient Macedon you have no substance behind the name "Macedonia". Without Pella and Thessaloniki you Skopjans are no more Macedonian than the Queen of England which is why you still hold territorial claims against the Province of Macedonia

"what's in a Name?"

PS - Macedonia is already recognised as an EU prefecture with the capital as Thessaloniki unfortunately for you. NO matter what you do you will not monopolise the Macedonian identity

History & Facts are available world wide in buildings called Libraries & Museums. Until new sustainable facts are made available, Greek culture language & history is the only link todate that stands true on Macedonia.
Just the facts Jack ...
Cut an apple pie in four pieces & you get what ????
You get 4 pieces of apple pie only - not a strawberry evolved pie.... the recipe does not change unless you add to it.

To Dr Cornelius Van Helsing are you related to Count Dracula ? as a full blown Englishman i object to being called a Mongrel so tell Jon and youself to P*SS off.

If it not as simple as name.

If it was that simple, then why are the people of FYROM building statues, stealing symbols, naming stadiums, airports and highways after a people that were not part of their 1300 years in this region? It is my understanding that there are no Greeks in FYROM, so what part of your population are you building these things for, and what part of your population is honoring those Greek hero's? There is obviously more to these motivations or some would say provocations that you are not sharing with us.

Why are you also attempting to monopolize the name Macedonia? and attempting to use it exclusively to describe your new found language, and ethnicity? God forbid if someone was to call you or your language Slav Macedonian.

And how does the name Macedonia only apply to your part, when there is obviously the real Macedonia south of your border? Do you think out of respect of the original Macedonia, you should distinguish yourself from the real historical and original part in Greece?

It is not as simple as allowing someone to chose a name, this issue is more complex then that.

I think I've made my major point some way down this increasingly bad-tempered thread, namely that Macedonia should have the right to its name BUT should repudiate any territorial rights outside its present frontiers AND should stop needless provocation of Greece with statues, airport names etc.

That said,and with that proviso, I think Jon has a very good point. We are all "mongrel" nations ethnically, whether British, Greek, or French, and the last European nation that tried to proclaim its own ethnic purity lost the Second World War.

Time for the injustice to stop. Greece must stop acting like the name Macedonia belongs to them and that they are such a "pure" nation. If Macedonians are Slavs, what are the Greeks? Was there a "Great Wall of Greece" that kept the Slavs out of the modern day borders of the country, which was created in the 1800s? Are they Vlachs, Albanians, Turks? Or are they a mix of all those plus more? Greeks need to stop acting like they're this pure race just because they speak the Greek language, which wasn't spoken by the Ancient Macedonians, might I remind you.

Try and make and sell a copy of a Disney film and you will be arrested under copyright law. Yet when Disney makes a film based on a Greek hero such as "Hercules" with a documented trademark history of at least 2,400 years there is no problem. Why? Because the law is designed to protect economic rights rather than moral rights. Greeks have a moral right to the name Macedonia with 2,400 years of history behind them. Fyromians emerged from (a very poor) province of Yugoslavia and need quick economic growth. What better way to achieve this than the cultural theft taking place? Fyromians are suing Greece for vetoing their entry to Nato under the name "Macedonia." Fyromians claim all of northern Greece as theirs. Soon they will claim all of Alexander the Great's ex-empire. All the way to Afganistan. And by the way they have already sent soldiers to Afganistan even though they are not a member of Nato. The bigger the theft the easier it is to get away with it?

Greece used the name to refer to the region way before 1988. Regardless, even if they did rename the region in 1988 officially to Macedonia, I still didnt know of a nation known as Macedonia before this. Either way you slice the pie my FYROMian firends, the name was used in Greece, by Greeks way before you guys. What year did your Pseudo-Macedonia "officially" exist? You get lost in Technicalities FYROMians. Go ahead, Greece officially called the area "Macedonia" in 1988, fine. Officially I will accept this. What year was Pseudo "Republic of Macedonia" created? Hmm, seems like a different decade, a whole three years later, in 1991. So still, your point makes as much sense as calling yourselves true Macedonians...NONE!

The lion is used by the ruling party VMRO, present. The Sun of Kutlesh is only one part of the 'Greek' hypocracy, lers not forget Greece renamed 'Northern Greece' to Macedonia in 1988. many years after they annexd this region ... Perhaps they thought everyone there had forgot by then. The 'civil' was was a means for genetic clensing!

Correct on the date. I meant to write use of the "name" only, but regardless, You fail to mention that they were not only unearthed by a Greek archaeologist, but also in Greece. How does it then belong to FYROM?

Recognition has only been bilateral James. Internationally, all organizations know your Pseudo-RoM as FYROM.

I agree this was foolish on the Greek part for letting this slip by, but regardless, the world only knows RoM bilaterally. Oh, and in case this hasnt been mentioned, the clear majority of these nations that have recognized RoM bilaterally, opnly did so with the notion that once the dispute is settled, they will recognize RoM under their new name. So basically, it was a bargaining chip for them. You sold out to them for something, they said, ok, we will call you whatever you want, but only between us, which means nothing to the world, but when you and Greece figure it out, we will call you that name. Doesnt sound like much of a commitment to me. Only sounds "temporary".

Macedonian - where did you get your history from ? The Star of Vergina was only unearthed (by a Greek archaeologist) in 1978, so it cannot have been "used for centuries" as you claim. As for the lion, it has the unique feature of having two tails (just like the Czech one) but rather unlike all other lions, both in heraldry and real life. So it is a genuine Macedonian emblem that upsets nobody (except that the Communist authorities did not like it in 1946.) Why not use it ?

Internationally, they can only use FYROM. Bilaterally, which was an oversight by the greek delegation during the interim agreement, they are able to use their constitutional name.

Some FYROMians on here say that Greek used the symbols and names only the second half of the last century. O fcourse this is the brainwashing and BS you are fed from your Pseudo-nation. Greeks have been calling themselves Macedonian for millenia. The "end of the last century" Macedonian calling has been your very own action, FYROMians. In case you still cant understand this, take a look at just one proof of evidence. To make it a bit more exciting for the brainwashed and uneducated, I included a video link instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKU6jX825p4

Now find me a slavic link to the name Macedonia prior to Tito or your Pseudo-Special Date of 1913.

Wow! Where to start.. These are Macedonian symbols. They beling to the Macedonian people - who qualify under any evaluation (exept trial by propaganda). The 'Greeks' grew fond of them at the end of the last century. They used perfectly good 'brandings before this such as the modified East Indian Company flag. As for the lion - it is a prominant signia throught Europe and is largely associated with the ruling monarcs of old. Way'd it go 'Dr'

The letter with 233 academic signatures was actually sent to the wrong person, as the President will merely send it on to the State Department for a "warm words" reply that says precisely nothing. If you want ACTION, re-issue it and send it to whichever US Congressman heads the Greek-American "caucus" on Capitol Hill. That is how to get things started under the US political system, not a letter to the President.

That said, the Macedonians have a right to their name under UN law AS LONG AS they undertake to respect all existing frontiers (with no more talk of "2013"), cease other provocative acts such as airport names and statues, and find some other national emblem other than the Star of Vergina (they had a perfectly useable national emblem in the Lion of Macedonia from 1597 to 1945, so why not use that instead ? It's very like the Czech lion, but the Czechs never objected.)

Recent genetic studies show that Greece has a higher 'sex-linked' Slavic origin than Macedonia. This is irony for you.

What's in identity? History, genetic lineage? If so, it is Macedonians are exactly that.

It's time to set history right. Not rewrite it. Macedonia, Never 'Greek'

You can call yourself anything you want but when you steal someone's identity it is called IDENTITY THEFT and that is a CRIME.
Slavic people have no right to use the word Macedonia. Skopjians are slavic people (whether your Bulgarian, Serb, Croatian, FYROM you come from Slavic tribes).
I am sick and tired of hearing these Slavic Fascists stealing Greek history and YES Macedonian is Greek.
History can not be rewritten or stolen!
Go Greece!!

I am a history professor and I have to join the other 233 scholars in agreeing its time to stop the revision of history by slavic speaking neighbors of the Greeks

Fyrom is the biggest joke of a nation. A mixture of every nationality in the Balkans speaking Bulgarian and wanting to be the "True Macedonians". The stupidity of its politicians will lead it to destruction.

i hope my identity will give you all some insight on my ethnik background..i am macedonian ..not greek..my family identity has been changed by the greek government in the 1930's..since then i have forced to identify as a greek...i rather be an eskimo..to day eskimos hame more rights than macedonians in so called democatic rrpublic oc greece..now they intend to change the name and identity of the republic of macedonia..is it because , if theydon't succeed..milions of so called greek macedonians might go back to their former macedonian family identity?..also greece has managed to instil fear to macedonians to the present day to be afraid to identy as macedonians all over the diaspoa..

FYROM is known as FYROM under the UN - those countries only use that name for bilateral relations. Countries use that name as a bargaining position against Greece.

Speaking of "UN law", a country can call itself whatever it wants as long as it doesn't offend anyone. So talk about Thomas Jefferson all you want. Was it Classical Greece that the fathers of America adopted for architecture?

Chris Melb Aus is right - any sovereign state has the right to choose its own name under UN law, and 120 UN member-nations have already recognised this in the case of Macedonia. The converse of this is that the sovereign state in question has to obey international rules, and should NOT issue bellicose statements about "retaking Solun" or invading Greek sovereign territory.

Hope this is clear to everybody

'No nation has the right to sit in judgement on any other nation" (Thomas Jefferson)....Sadly for you James...there are 120 countries around the world that have recognised Macedonia under it's constitutional name.

A petition against FYROM by 233 Greko/Roman scholars from around the world would have to disagree with you..

http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

greeks are to big for the boots stop bulling macedonia no need to change nating no need macedonia to do what america or greece say greeks like to change macedonian history and name and people by force shame on you all america europe and eu and nato.macedonia for macedonians hans off