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Sat, Nov 21 2009
Debate about Bulgaria’s leverage over Macedonia
Macedonia's prime minister Nikola Gruevski reviews a Bulgarian military honour guard during an official welcoming ceremony in Sofia, November 28 2007.
Macedonian prime minister Nikola Gruevski drew brickbats from Bulgaria’s top politicians for statements that Sofia interpreted as representing claims on its territory by Skopje – and some in Bulgaria have suggested that Macedonia should be reminded that it needs to keep to the straight and narrow (and its own borders) if it wants support for its bid to join the European Union.
Speaking in Australia on October 26 2009, Gruevski said that in that country, Macedonians had the unique opportunity to live together with their compatriots from Aegean and Pirin Macedonia and they should not divide into Vardar, Aegean, Pirin Macedonians, because there are only Macedonians.
The remark brought condemnation from Bulgarian President Georgi Purvanov, and from Bulgarian Prime Minister Boiko Borissov a reminder to "our Macedonian friends" that they needed to choose the path of EU values such as good neighbourly relations and avoiding making statement such as Gruevski’s.
Deputy Foreign Minister Marin Raikov added his own note of indignation, and several Bulgarian-language newspapers went into print with theirs, among them mass-circulation daily 24 Chassa which said: "Gruevski has presented Aegean and Pirin Macedonia as his own".
The same newspaper interviewed historian Georgi Markov who praised Bulgaria’s position of reminding Macedonia that its support for its Nato and EU membership bids was not unconditional (Purvanov had said this in reaction to Gruevski, but slightly longer memories will recall that it was also said under the previous government by Bulgaria’s then-foreign minister Ivailo Kalfin).
Markov said that individual Macedonians, the neighbouring country’s ordinary people, had ever-improving attitudes to Bulgaria but there was hostility among the Macedonian media, which was influenced by Belgrade.
Markov’s message was that if Skopje and Ankara (Turkey also aspires to EU membership) wanted to "play rough" they should be reminded that Bulgaria, as a member of both these organisations, held a "trump card".
Bozhidar Dimitrov, a historian who currently is minister for Bulgarians abroad and not a well-loved figure in Macedonia, was interviewed on Bulgarian National Television’s breakfast show on October 30.
Dimitrov repeated his theory that Macedonia’s political elite did not genuinely want the country to join the EU and Nato.
He linked this "suicidal policy" within Macedonia not only to Gruevski’s statements in Australia, but also to the Spaska Dimitrova case and the controversial encyclopedia episode.
Asked why Bulgaria should threaten to block Macedonia’s EU and Nato hopes – "why threaten them about something they do not want?" – Dimitrov said that "Macedonism" was a legacy of the Communist International and would be liquidated only when the country joined the EU and Nato. This was behind the opposition, he said.
It was sad, Dimitrov said, that the young people in charge of Macedonia – which, he said, had a cabinet with an average age of 34 and one minister as young as 20 – was dominated by the thinking of the early 20th century.
In Skopje, Inpress said that this was "not the first time" that Bulgaria’s Prime Minister had set conditions for his Macedonian counterpart in terms of Nato and the EU. The reaction of Dimitrov, Inpress was expected "as he is ‘expert’ in Macedonian-Bulgarian relations and an ‘analyst on duty’."
On October 30, the Macedonian government posted on its website an interview Gruevski gave to MIA news agency, in which he said that he had made no territorial claims and that his remarks had been taken out of context.
"The statement is taken out of its context. With regard to the situation around the Macedonian community in Australia, in my statement I called Macedonians in Australia to share higher understanding and not to get divided on any issues, such as the troubles around the church, the 'for' and 'against' the administrator of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, or over their origin which is what you stated in your question," the agency story said, as quoted by Bulgaria's Focus.
"I said that there - in Australia, they live in one country and I meant Australia, and that they should respect each other," Gruevski said.
"I also added that even on the Balkans, when all countries join the EU and the frontiers fall apart, all nations on the Balkans will live in Europe without borders, just like in Australia where different ethnic Macedonians are living, with no regard to where they were born – Croatians, Greeks, Albanians and etc., coming from different countries.
"I also said that it is normal for human beings to enter into quarrels but that forgiveness is a common Christian feature. I called for understanding, unity and forgiveness," Gruevski said.
"Not only weren’t there any territorial claims but there was some promising and pro-European spirit," he said.
"The Macedonian issue should not be used for discord but for reconciliation and unification. I am sorry if someone has misunderstood my statement. I am consistent in my statements and what I say at home is what I say abroad," Gruevski said.
Speaking in Australia on October 26 2009, Gruevski said that in that country, Macedonians had the unique opportunity to live together with their compatriots from Aegean and Pirin Macedonia and they should not divide into Vardar, Aegean, Pirin Macedonians, because there are only Macedonians.
The remark brought condemnation from Bulgarian President Georgi Purvanov, and from Bulgarian Prime Minister Boiko Borissov a reminder to "our Macedonian friends" that they needed to choose the path of EU values such as good neighbourly relations and avoiding making statement such as Gruevski’s.
Deputy Foreign Minister Marin Raikov added his own note of indignation, and several Bulgarian-language newspapers went into print with theirs, among them mass-circulation daily 24 Chassa which said: "Gruevski has presented Aegean and Pirin Macedonia as his own".
The same newspaper interviewed historian Georgi Markov who praised Bulgaria’s position of reminding Macedonia that its support for its Nato and EU membership bids was not unconditional (Purvanov had said this in reaction to Gruevski, but slightly longer memories will recall that it was also said under the previous government by Bulgaria’s then-foreign minister Ivailo Kalfin).
Markov said that individual Macedonians, the neighbouring country’s ordinary people, had ever-improving attitudes to Bulgaria but there was hostility among the Macedonian media, which was influenced by Belgrade.
Markov’s message was that if Skopje and Ankara (Turkey also aspires to EU membership) wanted to "play rough" they should be reminded that Bulgaria, as a member of both these organisations, held a "trump card".
Bozhidar Dimitrov, a historian who currently is minister for Bulgarians abroad and not a well-loved figure in Macedonia, was interviewed on Bulgarian National Television’s breakfast show on October 30.
Dimitrov repeated his theory that Macedonia’s political elite did not genuinely want the country to join the EU and Nato.
He linked this "suicidal policy" within Macedonia not only to Gruevski’s statements in Australia, but also to the Spaska Dimitrova case and the controversial encyclopedia episode.
Asked why Bulgaria should threaten to block Macedonia’s EU and Nato hopes – "why threaten them about something they do not want?" – Dimitrov said that "Macedonism" was a legacy of the Communist International and would be liquidated only when the country joined the EU and Nato. This was behind the opposition, he said.
It was sad, Dimitrov said, that the young people in charge of Macedonia – which, he said, had a cabinet with an average age of 34 and one minister as young as 20 – was dominated by the thinking of the early 20th century.
In Skopje, Inpress said that this was "not the first time" that Bulgaria’s Prime Minister had set conditions for his Macedonian counterpart in terms of Nato and the EU. The reaction of Dimitrov, Inpress was expected "as he is ‘expert’ in Macedonian-Bulgarian relations and an ‘analyst on duty’."
On October 30, the Macedonian government posted on its website an interview Gruevski gave to MIA news agency, in which he said that he had made no territorial claims and that his remarks had been taken out of context.
"The statement is taken out of its context. With regard to the situation around the Macedonian community in Australia, in my statement I called Macedonians in Australia to share higher understanding and not to get divided on any issues, such as the troubles around the church, the 'for' and 'against' the administrator of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, or over their origin which is what you stated in your question," the agency story said, as quoted by Bulgaria's Focus.
"I said that there - in Australia, they live in one country and I meant Australia, and that they should respect each other," Gruevski said.
"I also added that even on the Balkans, when all countries join the EU and the frontiers fall apart, all nations on the Balkans will live in Europe without borders, just like in Australia where different ethnic Macedonians are living, with no regard to where they were born – Croatians, Greeks, Albanians and etc., coming from different countries.
"I also said that it is normal for human beings to enter into quarrels but that forgiveness is a common Christian feature. I called for understanding, unity and forgiveness," Gruevski said.
"Not only weren’t there any territorial claims but there was some promising and pro-European spirit," he said.
"The Macedonian issue should not be used for discord but for reconciliation and unification. I am sorry if someone has misunderstood my statement. I am consistent in my statements and what I say at home is what I say abroad," Gruevski said.
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Regional fallout from Macedonia name dispute
Media reports say that the EU will pressure Athens and Skopje to come up with a solution to the Macedonia name dispute by December 7, or Brussels will take a cooler approach to Macedonia’s EU hopes; while a row breaks out in Belgrade after Serbia’s foreign minister takes sides in the dispute.
Serbia speaks on Macedonia name dispute – reports
Greece’s alternate foreign minister Dimitris Droutsas in talks in Belgrade at the start of a Western Balkans tour.
Bulgaria’s support for Macedonia conditional on its behaviour – Borissov
Bulgarian PM Boiko Borissov and visiting Macedonian counterpart Nikola Gruevski agree that their countries’ relations are ‘friendly and fraternal’ but Borissov warns that Sofia’s support for Skopje depends on Macedonia keeping to the rules of good neighbourliness.
Macedonian PM Gruevski in Bulgaria
Macedonia, hoping for Bulgarian support for its potential EU accession process, was expected to hear tough talk from Sofia on a change of attitudes towards Bulgarians.
Macedonian, Greek prime ministers ‘break the ice’ in name dispute talks
Greek prime minister George Papandreou and his Macedonian counterpart Nikola Gruevski met for more than an hour in Brussels, agreeing that it was essential to find a solution to the dispute over the name Macedonia.
Gruevski's words on Macedonian unity are unacceptable, Bulgarian President says
Bulgarian support for Macedonia's EU membership is not unconditional and depends on all territorial claims being immediately withdrawn, Georgi Purvanov says in Australia.
EU pressing for resolution of Macedonia name dispute
European Union representatives are urging Skopje to use the current ‘positive atmosphere’ to achieve a compromise with Athens about the use of the name Macedonia, and oppose Macedonian prime minister Nikola Gruevski’s plan to hold a referendum on the question, media reports say.
Solving the name dispute is key to Macedonia’s EU hopes
The European Commission’s report recommending the opening of EU accession negotiations with Skopje sparked cheering in Macedonia, but there are few signs that the name issue will be any easier than before.
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Kosovo’s governing coalition breaks up – reports
Parties that governed together in Pristina fall out because of their battle in Kosovo’s local government elections.
Regional fallout from Macedonia name dispute
Media reports say that the EU will pressure Athens and Skopje to come up with a solution to the Macedonia name dispute by December 7, or Brussels will take a cooler approach to Macedonia’s EU hopes; while a row breaks out in Belgrade after Serbia’s foreign minister takes sides in the dispute.
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the rest olso is nice.from all this you keep only the beer why?
Periclis - when you write:
<<look for other mythos too >>
I take it you are referring to that excellent Greek "Mythos" beer ? Probably the most sensible thing you have posted so far !
peter [a realy macedonian name]you speak bulgarian diallect,you have slavic name,butt you are macedonian a thik you nead doctor.the slavic come on this area LATTER this is clear,macedonian speak greec,have greec name,olso this is clear by historic,and not from tito cumunist propagant.visit the vergina too see the realy macedonian,why you cancel your realy nasionality like slavs???macedonian you born and you born slavs,look for other mythos too live,be prout like your realy nasionality,you now better then me you are slavs,check your name your languats,nothing with macedonia,stop too play the game of fasistic gruevski you dont win nothing,you lose energy too make the lies, true and the propagant realy history,you dont see??kiro gligorof [presiden on fyrom or vardaska on 1993]says on greece press 30 days ago:we are slavs we come on this area latter we dont have nothing close with alexadros we are not macedonian.so what you nead too see open??is very simple visit the vergina and see,this mythos is just propagant,be surius you never be macedonian,you realy now what means macedonia??
peter [a realy macedonian name]you speak bulgarian diallect,you have slavic name,butt you are macedonian a thik you nead doctor.the slavic come on this area LATTER this is clear,macedonian speak greec,have greec name,olso this is clear by historic,and not from tito cumunist propagant.visit the vergina too see the realy macedonian,why you cancel your realy nasionality like slavs???macedonian you born and you born slavs,look for other mythos too live,be prout like your realy nasionality,you now better then me you are slavs,check your name your languats,nothing with macedonia,stop too play the game of fasistic gruevski you dont win nothing,you lose energy too make the lies, true and the propagant realy history,you dont see??kiro gligorof [presiden on fyrom or vardaska on 1993]says on greece press 30 days ago:we are slavs we come on this area latter we dont have nothing close with alexadros we are not macedonian.so what you nead too see open??is very simple visit the vergina and see,this mythos is just propagant,be surius you never be macedonian,you realy now what means macedonia??
Periclis-greece,you dont know what you are talking.How many times do I or other Macedonians are telling you that we speak slavic language,but we are Macedonians who lived in this area for centuries before you so-called greeks.You are a mixture of different peoples,you are not connected to ancient Hellens.So stop pretending you are even a greek.The slavic language is spoken in Russia,Poland,Slovakia,Serbia and Bulgaria.Does this make them Slavo Bulgarians etc.?This kind of thetoric used by Greece is to fabricate the history that realy belongs to the Macedonians. Valeri,we are Macedonians because we live in the geographical Macedonia and that makes us Macedonians.The Turks are called Turks because they live in Turkey,you are called Bulgarian you live in the geographical area called Bulgaria.Americans are Americans because it is America.Gotse Delchev was killed by the Ottomans because a Greek spie did coloborated with the Turks.Jane Sandanski was assasinated by the Bulgarians in 1915.Your argument on geography you can flash it down the toilet.
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Valeri,you are mudding the truth my dear.If I say to you,you are not Bulgarian,what will you say to me?Your answer will be,I am Bulgarian.Dont you think I have the same right to say I am Macedonian?history tells us that the Macedonians fought the Ottomans for our freedom.The problem was,Bulgarians and the Greeks did co-operated againts the Macedonians.Look,all you have to take a look in historical content.The Greek PM in 1903 told the New York Times that, they co-operated with the Ottomans againts the Macedonian revolutionaries.Up untill 1915 Bulgaria was hunting the Macedonian revolutionaries.I wonder why!Further,the Macedonians who were expelled from Greece in the 1922-26 to Bulgaria have been setled in the Macedonian part of Bulgaria.Have you not heard the "Omo Ilinden" in the Pirin Macedonia who want their rights restored in Bulgaria?Same goes without saying in Greece with the "Vino Zito"?I have said before that,You want us to call ourselfs Bulgarians,but the Greeks claim we are Greek,who is right?Ill tell you who is right,we the Macedonians who are neither Bulgarians nor Greeks but we are MACEDONIANS!.
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Poor true Makedonski you don't express your true Makedonski feeling be a man and rise above your stupidity we are Macedonians who have brought the light to the world not the stupid.
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PETER ON FYROM THE LIVE SLAVS LIKE ALL AREA,THERE IS NOT MACEDONIAN,JUST STEAL OR HISTORY,SLAVS COME ON THIS AREA A MILENIUM AFTER ALEXANDROS DIES.MACEDONIAN THE SPEAK GREECE,HAVE GREECE NAMES,IT WASS GREECE,SO ON GREECE PART IS THE ORIGINAL MACEDONIAN.
Peter,
Macedonia is a region, not a nationality.
People in the Pirin region are 100% Bulgarian as were all of the Slavs in FYROM before Tito and the name changes.
Gotse Delchev is a Bulgarian. So is Sandanski.
This Yugoslav sickness of 19 style century ethnic and territorial greed has brought them nothing but deaths and poverty.
I've always feared that they will spread it to our door steps, and apparently the Greeks were right to block them at every step.
I was always at a loss to understand the Greek attitude towards FYROM but now I see the big picture.
Ex-Yugoslavs should be quarantined so not to spread the virus, until they are de-Yugoslavinized with time...
why remove all comments Sofia Echo, talk about "freedom of speech".
too all fyromanian, what means macedonia you now;;;;;;;propagant is over,the game is over.you nead doctor very soon,your langoits is bulgarian diallect,macedonian speak greec there is so siple,go too vergina and see stop lies stop too steal,you are slavs and you now this better then me.
Valeri,with due respect,Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia are Macedonians same as in Northern Greece and in the Republic of Macedonia.Greece expelled a large amount of Macedonians to Bulgaria to accomodate the Pontious people comming from Turkey.More importently,the indigenouse people of Pirin are Macedonians,defenetly not Bulgarians.Please, stick to the truth.
Valeri -
Exactly so ! When you say:
<< Makedonia is a geographical term, not ethnic. >>
this is actually the key to solving the entire "Macedonia" issue, especially under the "Northern Macedonia" name.
If only Greece would see this....mind you, Gruevski is a fool too.
Except that people living in Pirin region are Bulgarians, not so called Makedonians.
Makedonia is a geographical term, not ethnic.
On this occasion, I think Peter is entirely right. Any visiting VIP / Minister from a "source country" for the "emigracija" is going to play to his briefly-present audience, and this is quite normal and explicable.
(US politicians visiting Ireland - and claiming some Irish blood - did it shamelessly. Kennedy did it the most, and Reagan with the least credibility.)
Gruevskis statement in Australia was right on.The whole world has immigrants to different countries,and when an official travels to these States they all talk to their people as being same people.When a Bulgarian Minister goes abroad,he speaks to the Bulgarian people wheather directly from Bulgaria or ones who live in Macedonia or any other country.Bulgaria and Greece should not feel offended by Gruevskis statement.It is only natural to address people who belong to the same ethnicity.
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This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained commercial spam or excessive repeated posting of the same content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained foul, abusive or discriminating language.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.
This comment has been removed by the moderator because it contained off-topic content.